Manifest Destiny, Glory Hallelujah, and the trampling of grapes

[dawna]

Ole:

You leave me speechless with your wonderful humour and your ability to not whang on deceased equines but go right to the chase..."one more day" says it all :-)

Dawna

[unionblue]

Ole,

I have to agree with Dawna on this one. I feel you have said it all in one sentence what I was trying to say in a full post.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[hawglips]

Neil: "Saying that 'God is on our side' is somehow a defense or argument that the South was right in its goals during the war and that the North was wrong?"

Not at all. And believing 'God is on our side' is not a defense or argument that the North was right in coercing the States. But this defense, and it's sister, 'the rebellion had to be put down to save the world for democracy,' has been used on this board.

As usual, Bill says it nicely:

"...the North aspired to conquer the South and remake it in its own image; whereas the South never aspired to do the same in reverse. And religion played an important part in shaping the mindset which told Northerners that they were entitled to do these things."

And this mindset is reflected within the arguments supporting the coercion of States on this board.

Neil: "I am more of the opinion that most in the North were willing to let 'the erring sisters go' until they committed an unlawful act, the firing on Ft. Sumter. Then, and ONLY then, do you see a vast majority of the citizens of the North rise up and invoke the rightness of their cause, the preservation of the Union and the enforcement of the laws."

I think you are unquestionably right.

However, "the North" was not interested in enforcing the laws and Constitutional limitations on the government that didn't go their way, but were very eager to enforce the "laws" and conjured Constitutional constructions that they could use as excuses for forcing their will on the South.

The basic premise that "God could not do without America" - and not just "America," but only America as defined by Northern liberals - is one that I don't believe anyone with a small capacity for thinking would embrace, if they would use the capacity they possess. Unfortunately, I'd wager that that premise is embraced by perhaps the majority of Americans today.

Hal

[bill_torrens]

Ole,

If it's okay with you I'd like to whip the deceased Dobbin just a little longer.

"Cutting to the chase, the Union soldier signed up to kill Rebs because the Union needed saving."

Ah, but why did the Union need saving? Because many otherwise intelligent people believed that God was not merely an American, but a Bostonian. And that the Union was not merely a nation but a crucial part of this Bostonian Divinity's plans for spreading democracy through the world. Hence their sentimental and exaggerated response to Southern secession.

Bill

[johan_steele]

Bill, I have to chuckle... Don't you know God is an Iowa, or is Wisconsinte, or maybe an Ohioan. Every man of the Union believed God was on his side and I dare say the same was true of the Confederacy. Trust me Bostonian arrogance was no more popular in Wisconsin or Iowa than SC or Georgia... yet those states supported the Union and not the CS.

[johan_steele]

Hal, would you say the same about the South after the War? They were not only unwilling to obey the law, they were also unwilling to enforce or honor it... particularly where that law might give a black man the right to be treated as a human being... To mkae things even more interesting they would have been horrified at the thought that those laws should be enforced, but you know what... in an effort to prevent another or a contnuation of that War those laws were not enforced. Those who suffered were the black man and those who profitted were not.

I think you need to reread some of those fire eating speeches of the CS politicians... they were using Gods name, his justification and every other excuse they could think of to guarantee slavery and the destruction of the United States.

[thea_447]

Why is it that most members of the Northern persuasion on this board seem to read something differently into "leave the Union" than what Southern leaders were saying? Nowhere have I read "destroy the Union", "destroy the United States", but many times I have read "let us leave", "separate nation", etc.

I think perhaps Northerners in those turbulent times thought if the South left that it would destroy the Union but I don't believe for one moment that this would have happened.

The Union would have been smaller, yes, but they would still have been the United States.

I would like to be shown where I can find a speech by one of the fire eaters where he actually STATES that the purpose of leaving the Union is the destruction of the United States.

[ole]

Bill:

Thank you sir. May he have another?

The Union needed saving because someone allegedly seized Federal property by force of arms. Bostonians had no more to do with it than Ohioans or any other "ans."

Thea:

"Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it so." (A. Lincoln) You don't believe that letting the erring sisters go would have destroyed the Union? Well, it wouldn't have sunk into the ocean, but the secessionist states would certainly not have made it on their own, given their devotion to wearing blinders.

Ole

Ole,
You speak of blinders? Sigh. Pot's accusatory conversation with the Kettle.

YMOS
tommy

[johan_steele]

Sigh, let's see seizing every bit of Federal property they could lay their hands on, calling up 100,000 troops and finally opening fire upon Ft Sumter; a nice chain of evidence leaving little doubt about intent or respect for anything but themselves. Of coarse it was the fault of Pres Lincoln that a man in SC standing behind a Columbiad pulled taht lanyard that fired the first shot of the War. What flag flew over that target? I do believe it was the flag of the United States, not the personal flag of Mr Lincoln. That flag, as upon the high seas, represented the <u>United States</u> not just Illinois or New York.

Anyone wish to hazzard a guess as to what the reaction of SC would have been if a ship hauling cotton and flying the US flag would have been if a British ship of the line would have fired upon her and forced her to surrender?

I don't know about there never having been a good War? Ask that of the Jews and Gypsies of the Holocaust. The Spanish of the Pennisula or the South Koreans of 1950.