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Civil War History - Secession and Politics Was it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.

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  #161  
Old 11-24-2005, 11:24 PM
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Doesnt it all ultimately come down to Lincoln's fundamental responsibility to enforce US law. Since the CSA states considered themselves separate and removed from the Union, Lincoln treated them as such. Just as self defense is part of the justifiable homicide statutes, i believe it applies writ large. its obviously not this simple but, as far as Lincoln reacting to Ft Sumter, it applies re: the 75K troops.
Respectfully,
Matt
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  #162  
Old 11-25-2005, 12:06 AM
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MobileBoy,

I would be very interested in the posts where you say Cash has posted oppossing viewpoints on the idea that the 75,000 men Lincoln called for were not militia. Could you direct me to them please?

In the meantime, I find it very strange that the tariff issue seems to have gotten off track on this thread. I have taken the time to go back through all of the posts and reexamined all of the evidence and documentation presented here, and still find the tariff issue wanting as a cause, even a slight one, of the war.

Timing again appears to be the major flaw with any argument raised concerning the Morril Tariff being a source of agitation for war. Time and again when those who back the theory that the tariff was a cause for war, fail to take into account the percentage increases they claim the South was concerned about were war measures passed AFTER the original Morril Tariff was passed by Congress and the Senate. The proof is found in the Congressional Globe web site and at the Taussing web site.

I would appreciate any new evidence that could be brought to bear on the subject of tariffs which would get this thread back on track.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________
"The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass

"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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  #163  
Old 11-25-2005, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileBoy
Is your medicine not working right anymore?Right all 75,000 were quote unorganized militia.
Since you're talking about medicine, etc.:

You seem to have problems understanding the written word, and then you blame others for your own shortcomings. I very clearly said some were in the organized militia at the time of call-up and some weren't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileBoy
Please sell ocean front property in Iowa to someone else I'm not buying.Do you not recall you and I discussing this before?You said then quote it was beyond Lincoln's constitutional authority but you saw it as no harm no foul.What happened in a week for you to have a different position?If you need me to post your previous remarks on the issue I'd be happy to do so.
Again, you fail to comprehend the written word. I said Lincoln's expansion of the regular army, which was completely separate and different from the call-up of 75,000 militia and was not raising an army, was beyond his constitutional authority and was later ratified by Congress. Your complete unfamiliarity with the actual historical events leads you to make foolish charges that have no basis in reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileBoy
Lincoln's act of expanding the regular army beyond its congressionally mandated limit was beyond his constitutional authority, done in anticipation of congressional approval-Cash

Right and now all of a sudden they were unorganized militia.
Shrug all you want, it simply shows your complete ignorance of what the militia is and how it is different from the regular army. If you're too lazy to educate yourself on the difference between militia and regular army, that's your choice, but it makes you look like a fool every time. Why don't you go back and learn what happened in April of 1861, because it's obvious you don't have a clue yet.

And the next time you demonstrate how to tackle it might be wise to borrow a helmet.

Regards,
Cash
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  #164  
Old 11-25-2005, 12:37 PM
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Cash,
Can you not see looking back at the post where I thought we were talking about Lincoln's call for 75,000 volunteers.That's what I brought up and we discussed as far as I knew.I don't have ESP and don't know when you switch the subject when you don't indicate you're talking about a different scenario.I hope you visit alabama one day I would rather emjoy demonstrating the technique of tackling up close and personal.I'd even be willing to pay your way.

Neil,
This is an excerpt from Davis' first inaugaral.Funny that he and Lincoln both mentioned the tarrif in their inaugaral and you somehow conclude it was a non-issue.
An agricultural people, whose chief interest is the export of a commodity required in every manufacturing country, our true policy is peace and the freest trade which our necessities will permit. It is alike our interest and that of all those to whom we would sell and from whom we would buy, that there should be the fewest practicable restrictions upon the interchange of commodities. There can be but little rivalry between ours and any manufacturing or navigating community, such as the northeastern States of the American Union.-Jeff Davis
Timing is a major flaw in your opinion to the tarrif being an issue.
39 out of 40 House of Representatives members from states that would secede only a year later voted against the Morril Tarrif yet you have a problem with timing?Are you kidding me?Please tell me you're not being serious.
The Morril tarrif increased the percentage from 15 to 37.5 percent before the war.How is a 22.5 percent increase possibly seen as insignificant by you?That was the rate on the bill which passed the House before the war.
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  #165  
Old 11-25-2005, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileBoy
Can you not see looking back at the post where I thought we were talking about Lincoln's call for 75,000 volunteers.That's what I brought up and we discussed as far as I knew.I don't have ESP and don't know when you switch the subject when you don't indicate you're talking about a different scenario.
I clearly referred to his expansion of the regular army, which is not militia. 75,000 volunteers are specifically militia. You're the one who has confused everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileBoy
I hope you visit alabama one day I would rather emjoy demonstrating the technique of tackling up close and personal.I'd even be willing to pay your way.
That sounds like a threat of physical violence to me. So now you've graduated from insulting people to threatening them?

Regards,
Cash
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  #166  
Old 11-25-2005, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileBoy
The Morril tarrif increased the percentage from 15 to 37.5 percent before the war.How is a 22.5 percent increase possibly seen as insignificant by you?That was the rate on the bill which passed the House before the war.
The average rate before the passage of the tariff act of 1861 was not 15%, and the average rate after it's passage was not 37.5%. This is disinformation ala DiLorenzo which has recently been covered multiple times on this board.

The "Percent of Duties to Dutiable Imports", as given in the Statistical Abstract of the United States is listed as 19.67% for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1860, and in the fiscal year ending June 30, 1861, which is the only period (4th quarter) in which the Morrill tariff act as passed before Lincoln took office was collected, the rate fell to 18.84%.

Cedarstripper
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  #167  
Old 11-25-2005, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
I would appreciate any new evidence that could be brought to bear on the subject of tariffs which would get this thread back on track.
Neil,

As you know, the bulk of dutiable articles imported were found on Schedule C, and the rate of 24% ad valorem in the 1857 act was raised to 28% ad valorem in the 1861 act. If we could simply compare the rates of these two acts, we could maybe get past all the nonsense about the doubling and tripling etc. of the 1861 Morrill act, as passed before the war. Of course, what makes this a little difficult are the articles that were affixed with a specific duty rather than an ad valorem duty. To make an accurate comparison, all we need is the wholesale price of the individual commodity for or about 1860, and it is simple enough to then make the comparison.

I'll start with offering these articles. Their wholesale prices are taken from the US Census Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1970 http://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcom...T1970p1-01.pdf Using those prices, I have calculated what the duties would have been under the 1846 and 1857 acts, as well as the 1861 Morrill act. Duties are for the unit of measure shown.

article ..............unit......price......1846 duty...1857 duty......1861 duty
Wheat................bu......$1.49........$0.30... ......$0.22............$0.20
Wheat flour.......barrel....$5.19........$1.04.........$ 0.78............$0.93
Sugar (refined).....lb......$0.096.......$0.029........$ 0.023..........$0.02
Cotton sheeting..yd3.....$0.08.........$0.021.......$0.01 6...........$0.021
Coal (anthracite)..ton....$3.40.........$1.02........$0 .816...........$0.50
Iron rails.............ton.....$48...........$14.40.... ...$11.52...........$12.00
Nails (cut)....100# keg...$3.13........$0.94.........$0.751........... $1.00
Copper sheathing...lb.....$0.262.......$0.052.......$0.03 9...........$0.02
Turpentine .........gal......$0.423.......$0.085.......$0.063 ..........$0.085

While the 1861 tariff is so often characterized as a severe protectionist tariff, the 1846 tariff act was characterized as a free trade tariff, and yet in the sample above, only one article (nails) incurred a higher rate in 1861 than in 1846. In 1861, buyers of four articles (copper, wheat, coal, sugar) enjoyed a lower tariff rate than in 1857.

So I ask members to post the articles and their 1860 price that they believe made the Morrill tariff overall a departure from the earlier tariff policies that the nation had lived in relative peace with for the previous thirty years.

If someone has access to an 1860 Hunts Merchant's Magazine or other similar publication, it would be a wealth of information of 1860 prices to determine just how severe the 1861 act actually was, and on specifically what items.

Cedarstripper
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  #168  
Old 11-26-2005, 03:36 AM
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cedarstripper,

Thank you for your above post that uses historical facts and figures with sources from the period.

Now why do you suppose none who lean to the idea that the Morril Tariff was that all-increasing tariff that brought on the Civil War if none of the facts support that contention?

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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  #169  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:46 PM
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Neil,
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Now why do you suppose none who lean to the idea that the Morril Tariff was that all-increasing tariff that brought on the Civil War if none of the facts support that contention?
CAUTION: The following post will put you to sleep!

Well, not all of the facts are in, which is why I'd like to see more examples of normal prices in US dollars for goods in 1860. The more we can compare, the better we can become familiar with the actual act and the less ground there will be for those who want to stand on myth, one way or the other.

In FY 1860, the following seven articles brought in 75% of tariff revenues:
sugar/molasses.................16.14%
manufactures wool.............15.11%
manufactures cotton..........13.19%
manufacturessilk...............12.03%
manufactures iron/steel.......8.96%
wines/spirits......................6.15%
cigars/tobacco...................3.23%
Total revenues collected......$ 53,979,570

If we consider the importance of tariffs according to the money they raised, then the above list should be our starting point. I have already covered sugar, the largest single origin of revenues, and certainly an item bought by all Americans. The 1861 tariff act actually lowered the rate of tax slightly on it. No foul here, except to Lousiana.

Wool manufactures were taxed at 24%, 19% and 15%nder the 1857 act, and according to Senator Gwin (CA) 2/3 of imports were at the 24% level [manufactures of wool] and most of the remainder at the 19% level [yarn]. In order to compare these with the 1861 act, we not only need to know 1860 prices for wool manufactures, but how much they weighed too. Some examples:

item......................1846 duty.........1857 duty..............1861 duty
Cloths, shawls...........30%..................24%......... ......$.12/lb + 25%
Flannel < $.30/yd2.....25%..................24%.................. ...25%
Flannel > $.30/yd2.....25%..................24%.................. ...30%
Yarn $.50 - $1.00/lb...25%..................19%...............$.12/lb + 15%
Yarn > $1.00/lb..........25%..................19%.............. $.12/lb + 25%
Clothing....................30%..................2 4%..............$.12/lb + 25%
Oil Cloths..................30%..................24%.. ....................30%
Delanies....................30%..................2 4%......................25%
Buntings....................30%.................24 %......................30%

Raw wool:
...." @$.15/lb............$.045...............free............ ........free
...." @ $.18/lb...........$.054...............free............. .......$.03
...." @$.24/lb............$.072...............$.058........... .......$.03
...." @ $.30/lb...........$.09.................$.072........... .......$.09
...." @ $.40/lb...........$.12.................$.096........... .......$.09

The Historical Statistics of the US lists "Ohio, Fine Fleeced, Scoured" wool at the Boston market as $1.025/lb. If this were used in comparing duties, it would have brought $.31/lb in duties under the 1846 act, $.25/lb under the 1857, and still only $.09/lb under the 1861 act. However, since I cannot compare "Ohio, Fine Fleeced, Scoured" with any particular imported wool, I have to consider it inapplicable. Furthermore, reciprocity agreements with Canada make much of the tariff on imported wool seem rather irrelevant.

Taussig does say that the "most important changes made by the act of 1861 were in the increased duties on iron and wool, by which it was hoped to attach to the Republican party Pennsylvania and some of the Western states." (He then wrote "Most of the manufacturing states at this time still stood aloof from the movement toward higher rates.") This would indicate a higher incidence of protection for wool growers. But further reading shows a wool industry that is using domestic wool for the vast bulk of its manufacturing, so the real importance of wool tariffs again appears questionable.

As an issue with the South though, I fail to see how either wool manufactures, yarn, carpet, or raw wool would have been any more significant to them as compared to any other region, and in fact it would seem much less important. I surely hope the South didn't secede over wool delanies and buntings.

Cedarstripper

"After having enjoyed protection to the extent of from 15 to 200 per cent. upon their entire business for above thirty years, the act of 1846 was passed. It avoided sudden change, but the principle was settled, and free trade, low duties, and economy in public expenditures was the verdict of the American people." Georgia Declaration of Causes

Last edited by cedarstripper; 11-28-2005 at 06:28 AM.
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  #170  
Old 11-27-2005, 01:21 PM
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The Morrill tariff was compared to and even higher than the 1828 Tariff of Abominations, which had led to the 1832 Nullification Crisis. On November 19, 1860 US Senator Robert Toombs denounced the "infamous Morrill bill" as the product of a coalition of "the robber and the incendiary...united in joint raid against the South" in his speech advocating secession to the Georgia Legislature.
Cedarstripper can you please post the rates of the tarrif of abominations with this one.Thanks for the information.
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Regards,
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