Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I see a difference between "turning them loose" in the 18th century and the 19th. Perhaps assimilation would have been kinder, but I doubt it. At least, after the fracture, the Federal government had an obligation, however insincere and poorly handled.
As I understand it, the colonization movement would have provided some guidance and help in setting up the colony ... water, tools, implements, etc. Dumping them on the shore wouldn't have worked any better then than it would today.
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
It's off the point, I guess, but I'd be inclined to dispute your claim that imperialism "tore the heart out of Africa".
I'm certainly not saying that it was an exercise in philanthropy, but imperialism eventually eradicated slavery, cannibalism and (in India, admittedly) the charming custom of throwing widows alive onto their husbands' funeral pyres. A few examples chosen at random.
Imperialism also gave these regions their judicial and political systems as well as, in the English language, a common administrative vocabulary.
And did you know that in some colonies there were never more than a few hundred Europeans at any one time, governing populations of hundreds of thousands? Which suggests that the natives were hardly ground down under the boot of oppression.
Political correctness demands that Europe apologises to its former imperial possessions. I prefer to observe the corruption and tyranny which is endemic throughout independent Africa. A newspaper article last week seriously suggested that some of these countries would be better off back under imperial rule.
I respectively disagree with your claim on African slavery. Slavery still exists in Africa today. After having spent 5 months in Africa, the child, sex, and adult slave trade continues to play a part in African society.
Though points you make are true, I can also give several examples. For example, the exploitation of the Congo region. How many africans were exploited and forced into perpetual slavery for natural resources? Africa was exploited well after we fought our war. Europe had no qualm about interfering in others affairs to exploit a natural resource or gain a strategic advantage.
Also, some Europeans did meet and discuss spheres of influence in Africa. In my view this is no different than what they did in China. Ironically, when the US and Europe tried it with the Japan, they rapidly and became a thorn within 50 years.
Ironically, if the Africans had been enslaved some might have faired better. After all, it can be a minor financial hardship to lose a slave than forced labor.
What if NO black slaves had been sent to the United States before the Revolution? Would this have made certain the United States would have NOT had a Civil War? It would have indeed eliminated one of the biggest flash points for the war, and in my own humble opinion, the major one if not the cause for it.
But would it have eliminated the problem of race in the United States, the secondary question not asked by this thread, but there nonetheless. No.
Blacks and other races would have been encountered in the US's Western expansion period. Indians, Mexicans and what of former black slaves fleeing from Latin America or Cuba or other countries that still had slavery? Would encounters with these races in a overall white nation been a cause of friction? Not to the point of Civil War? No clue, but I am willing to bet there would have been friction over it, perhaps even bloodshed.
Maybe we, the United States, would not have lost hundreds of thousands in a North/South Civil War, but when do the number of deaths become reasonable? Tens of thousands of Indian deaths are OK? Thousands of Chinese coolies kept down after they have built your railroads? Even more thousands of Irish kept out of jobs and ground down because of their religion and queer ways? The rich whites vs the poor whites? Lots of potential for problems.
A lot to live up to, those words, 'All men are created equal.' Still have a long way to go, but I'll chance it if the words are still the guide.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
To cut to the chase, with no slavery since the beginning we would have somehow tried to eradicate the blacks as we've tried to obliterate all other non-white, non-Western European. Only a small seed of conscience kept us from that. Given it's logical conclusion, all would have been erased from the American presence.
We don't accept other people easily. This is evident with the Germans, Irish, Mediterranians, Eastern Europeans, etc., not to mention our indigenous people. We are naturally racist and only, with great effort, rationalize and accept their presence among us. It's a struggle, but reasonable, that we recognize people as a new part of this nation. We have bugs to work out, but work it out, we will. In short, we are human and therefore suck.
I tend to toss in the towel and put it to divine providence to work out the details.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Hope your absence has not been because of illness. I think a few of us here have been having a rather rough go of it since Christmas but hopefully everyone is on the mend now.
As to our inherent dislike of anything not lily white in those early years, I think it probably stemmed from some subtle notion that we are mentally superior. We made the Irish into slaves practically and didn't turn a hair doing it. The same can be said of any of the indentured servants who came to these shores "yearning to be breathe free." What a joke.
We summed up the friendly natives as suckers immediately and set about to steal their lands, either make slaves of them or annihilate them, whichever seemed easier.
What absolutely floors me is while mucking around in all these dispicable acts we self-righteously turned out in droves to "our" churches to pray for the poor unfortunates (who of course were being made more unfortunate at our hands).
From the get-go Americans who had just rid themselves of the yoke of English rule sought enthusiastically to put it on any other unfortunate race that happened to get in their path.
But back to the North/South war, I believe war would have come anyway, but on a more limited scale. It would have come because of tariffs, states rights , and the basic fact that Northerners and Southerners (particularly in that era) were vastly different: both in religious persuasions, but in domestic and political theory, as well as the industrial vs. agrarian lifestyles. Heck, even the climate made us different from one another.
I also believe that perhaps, after a couple of years of this, the North would have seen that it would be easier to let the South leave and not be bothered with her anymore, trusting that eventually she would see the expediency of returning to the "fold" of Mother Union.
Alas, that would not have happened, but by then perhaps the two nations would have formed some sort of bond whereby they could conduct business with one another and with other countries, and perhaps "watch each other's backs" so to speak.
I am YMOS,
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
If Slavery had a) been rejected in 1776 or b) never been in North America at all, I believe the Civil War would have occurred anyway. I believe it was inevitable.
If one accepts, as I do not, that the war was over slavery then of course it would have been different. However since I believe otherwise, that the war was over a large number of diverse reasons, mostly cultural, I think that it was inevitable.
As to the American Indian, that’s what he gets for being on our land before we got here!
(OK that’s from the movie Maverick, but I love that line)
Could you please state your diverse, cultural reasons for the war that made it inevitable?
Curious,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
When different cultures clash problems occur, usually violent problems.
The ACW was, in many ways, similar to the English civil war. Culturally diverse people trying to live together, easy enough, being ruled together? Much harder. One will become dominant as happened in the ACW
The roundheads (Yankees) and the cavaliers (rebels) were religiously, culturally, values wise, and lifestyle wise, different.
Where the strong immigration into the north brought a European strong central government culture to the north, the immigration to the south stayed in limited areas and was less influential on the culture.
Today in the 21st century there is still a strong cultural difference north and south, now we add east and west as well, but it is older and stronger in the north south difference.
“Television English” which the newscasters use is northern, Midwestern, almost Cleveland English (we seem to be the center of such things). Why? Because a culture speaks with one voice, and that voice is the one that won the war. Listen to Dan Rather on television reporting (if you can call it that) and again when being interviewed. notice the accent.
I have lived in South Carolina as well as in Ohio. The differences in culture, values, and lifestyle is huge. If it is like that today, imagine what is was like then.
I fully believe that the war was inevitable, no matter the stated or claimed reasons, cultures clash, it’s the way of the world.
There were catalysts of course, and they can be argued until the cows come home, but I still believe if catalyst “A” was not present we would have found a “B”, or a “C” or whatever.
You speak of different cultures, assigning Yankees the 'roundheads' and the South 'cavaliers' labels. Immigration brought a stong central government culture to the North? And less of such a notion to the South because of its low immigration?
And the Revolutionary War was about what? Do you consider this a clash amongst cultures or against a strong central government?
How many small farmers were there in the North in 1860? How many small farmers (no slaves) were in the South? What do you feel were the main simularities between North and South at the start of the Civil War?
In my trips around the world with the military I was constantly astounded by how people everywhere are pretty much the same. They want to be left alone. They want enough money to put food on the table and provide for their families and children. They want a roof over their heads and a bed to sleep in. They want their kids to be better off than they were. In Asia, Europe and the Far East and even Texas, I found the same thing when dealing with all races, religions, nationalities, cl***** and cultures, from Okinawa Japan to Sinope Turkey, Frankfort Germany to San Antonio Texas.
The exception I have found are those groups and individuals who want to set themselves higher, to consider themselves special or better in some way, those who consider that the rest of us folk owe them some sort of deference, but you have those in every country, culture and religion. They just aren't worth the bother.
Just an observation,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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