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Civil War History - Secession and Politics Was it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.

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  #951  
Old 12-10-2005, 10:27 PM
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'Bama:
I don't see many who say that slavery was the only cause -- just that, pick a cause, any cause, and you'll likely find a slavery element in it.

For example, your "sectional desire to be free of the union" statement, when washed of the historical dirt, will expose that the desire to be free of the union was based on frustration with the threat of limiting slavery's expansion real fear of eventually losing the institution on which its entire economy (well, at least the planter class' entire economy) was based.

This is not to downplay a cohesive desire to leave the union (with notable exceptions in many southern areas), but to show that its roots arise from slavery. States' rights? A return to the original intent of the Declaration of Independence (striking the "all men are created" philosophy)? Consent of the governed? All smoke screens. Tariffs? A red herring.

I'll stand by my statement.
Ole

I like them both with the Yellow Rose of Texas coming a close second.
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Last edited by ole; 12-10-2005 at 10:30 PM.
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  #952  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:10 AM
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HEY
I found the most awesome site. The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill's University Library has a site called "Documenting the American South" or "DocSouth" with loads of primary documents, from all periods of Southern life, with a lot of stuff, unsurprisingly, on North Carolina.

I can't get a link figured out, but you can google it. It's great.

What led me there was it had this children's book published in the South in 1863 called:
"The Geographical Reading for the Dixie Children." by Marinda Branson Moore. In it, she describes the basic geography of the world, climate, and characteristics of the races etc. Then in simple terms she explains to the children of Dixie the origin of the terrible war: Northern attempts to restrict, interfere with, and perhaps abolish slavery.

The site is wonderful, the Moore book is great for its summing up of entire nations and races in judgemental non PC terms. South Carolinians are "hot heads" Texas was a "refuge for bad men" but is now a proper state. Northerners are "refined and intelligent on all subjects but that of negro slavery, on this they are mad." Wait till she talks about foreigners.

Folks, its required reading.
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  #953  
Old 12-11-2005, 01:29 AM
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http://sunsite.unc.edu/docsouth/
See if this helps. Found the site about 6 years ago, and have seen some great additions there in this timeframe.
Chuck in IL.
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  #954  
Old 12-11-2005, 03:20 AM
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Aside from pushing a confederate political agenda, her grasp of world geography was enormous, she was obviously a highly intelligent woman.
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  #955  
Old 12-11-2005, 12:05 PM
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If you read the book, there is a some tension and sadness there too. She would die in 1864, so I don't know if its her own health, or the stress of the war.
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  #956  
Old 12-11-2005, 08:32 PM
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"We are a band of brothers,
Native to the soil
Fighting for the property
We gained by honest toil."

http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/estimate.html
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  #957  
Old 12-11-2005, 09:42 PM
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I posted my reply to the WBTS tune 'The Bonnie Blue Flag' as a mere personal favourite, not to get involved in a long distance micturating contest with a great Naval hero. But since you gained a good start, lets take her to another stanza, or two:

(taken from where the generous Admiral left off)

And when our rights were threatened,
The cry rose near and far;
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star!

chorus: (EVERYBODY NOW!)
Hurrah, Hurrah!
For Southern rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star!

As long as the Union
Was faithful to her trust,
Like friends and brethren,
Kind were we, and just;
But now, when Northern treachery
Attempts our rights to mar,
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag That bears a single star.

(more stanzas to be continued if needed)

Alabaman

Last edited by Alabaman; 12-11-2005 at 09:44 PM.
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  #958  
Old 12-11-2005, 11:32 PM
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First gallant South Carolina
Nobly made the stand,
Then came Alabama
And took her by the hand;
Next, quickly, Mississippi,
Georgia, and Florida,
All raised on high the Bonnie Blue flag
That bears a single star.
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  #959  
Old 12-12-2005, 06:23 AM
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Sing along Admiral! (set to the tune of The Irish Jaunting Car);

You men of valor gather round
The banner of the RIGHT,
Texas and fair Louisiana
Join us in the fight;
Davis, our loved Presient,
And Stphens statesman are;
Now rally round the Bonnie Blue Flag
Tha bears a single star.

Alabaman
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  #960  
Old 12-12-2005, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebProf
The Dred Scott decision has been misrepresented by those who claim only one finding, namely that Scott was not a citizen and had no right to sue. That is the first part of the finding. The majority also ruled that a stay on free soil did not make one a free man. That part of the decision validated the Fugitive Slave Law and overturned the Missouri Compromise. If the president and congress cannot eleminate slavery in the 1820 bill, what does that say about their ability to end slavery?

This was the meaning of the decision as understood at the time and by most historians since. The "obiter dictum" in the case was the comment that slaveowners could go anywhere they chose taking slaves with them and do so for any length of time. This comment caused the Republican Party to fear the Court was about to use another case to overturn state laws prohibiting slavery.

Any standard history of the Scott case makes clear the importance of both parts of the majority finding.
Wrong again.

First of all, let's be clear on our terms. Obiter dictum is "An assertion made in an opinion of a court which is not pertinent to the decision made in the case." [Harold J. Spaeth, An Introduction to Supreme Court Decision Making, Revised Edition, p. 79] Obiter dictum, because it is not pertinent to the decision, is not considered law.

"In his 'opinion of the Court,' Chief Justice Taney had emphatically excluded Negroes from citizenship and denied Congress the power to prohibit slavery in the territories. But were these declarations part of the ratio decidendi [This is the basis of the decision, or the grounds upon which the case was decided. This is considered to be law.] and therefore authoritative? Concerning the first, there was no doubt that it had the support of a majority of the justices, while the second was promptly challenged with the label, 'obiter dictum.'" [Don E. Fehrenbacher, The Dred Scott Case: Its Significance in American Law and Politics, p. 322]

When the opinion was announced, no less an authority than Judge Timothy Farrar, one of the foremost constitutional scholars of the day, was clear about the decision: "if persons of African descent were not citizens and could not sue, that necessarily would be the end of the Dred Scott case. 'There is nothing afterwards before the court to be judicially adjudicated or considered.' Any argument beyond that would be obiter dictum." [Kenneth M. Stampp, "Comment on Earl Maltz, 'The Unlikely Hero of Dred Scott: Benjamin Robbins Curtis and the Constitutional Law of Slavery,'" Cardozo Law Review, Vol 17, No. 6, May, 1996, p. 2020]

Not only Farrar, but several on the Court:

"Justice Campbell stated in 1870 and 1874 that a majority of justices (McLean, Catron, Nelson, Grier, and himself) had held 'that there was nothing in the plea of abatement [concerning the Missouri Compromise] before the court for review.' Taney's holding on that point was obiter dictum, in other words.

"While contemporaries, as well as the great majority of historians since, have considered it obiter dictum, there has been some recent dissent led by Professor Edward S. Corwin, who argues that, if five justices held the plea of abatement to be before the court, and held the Missouri act unconstitutional, it cannot be said that this part of the argument was any more obiter dictum than any other part. The argument is logical, but rests on the assumption that a majority of the court did hold the plea of abatement to be before the court. Corwin names Campbell as among the 'majority' of five that so held. [As we see from the above, though, Campbell is NOT a justice who held it was before the court, and Corwin is thus mistaken.] Those of Corwin's persuasion disparage Campbell's above-quoted testimony to the contrary in 1870 as the faulty reminiscence of an 'old man.' But Campbell's statement, hitherto solitary, and isolated by the intervening years, is verified by the testimony of Justice Catron, who wrote to Judge Samuel Treat of Missouri on May 31, 1857, just after the decision was rendered:

" 'On returning home from Frankfort yesterday, I found the 19 How[ard] here--and last 'Union' has in it Chief J. Taney's opinion in th eDred Scott case. The Ed. says that he will publish one more of the opinions of the majority and one of the minority opinions. Now as I openly disagreed with the Ch. J. as to whether the plea in abatement was in the Case: and also as to the source of power conferred by the Constitution on Congress to govern Territories, I take it that my opinion will hardly be allowed a place in the Union newspaper. You'll see that I disavow any power in the court to deal with the matter in abatement; and in this position Campbell, Grier (in fact, Nelson, McLean & Curtis) agree, making the Chief's opinion a dictum.

" 'It cannot stand a moment in face of the dissenting opinions on this point. And as to the source of power, only three originally disagreed with me. The Ch. J., Daniel & Campbell. Wayne came in, in the face of his opinion to the contrary in Cross vs. Harrison. 16 How.' [Justice Catron to Treat, May 31, 1857]

"This seems to give final approval to the view, as expressed by Professor Frank H. Hodder, that, 'The only point decided by the judgment of the Court was that the status of a slave, leaving a slave state and subsequently returning to it, was determinable by the courts of that state. The case was resented, not for what it decided, but for what the opinions portended.' The people might well have misconceived what was done, when Taney's opinion was miscalled the 'opinion of the court.'" [E. I. McCormac, "Justice Campbell and the Dred Scott Decision," Mississippi Valley Historical Review, Vol XIX, No. 4, Mar., 1933, pp. 575-577]

Once Taney ruled that Dred Scott was not a citizen and therefore had no standing, that was all that was needed for the decision of the court. The case was over at that point. Everything that followed was obiter dictum and not law. A majority of the Justices on the Court of the time even agree with that.

Regards,
Cash
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