Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I'm sorry that I'm not keeping up with this thread as much as I would like to, but I do appreciate all of the information that you've provided lately, and I just have a few questions and comments, so again, please bear with me.
The May, 1862 correspondence between President Lincoln and Reverend James Mitchell was a letter (Rev. Mitchell was also appointed as the Emigration Commissioner to Lincoln's colonization program) and not the 28 page document that you mentioned. I'm planning on spending a day in Toronto within the next few weeks, so I will research this letter while I'm at the library, since we apparently disagree on the source of Reverend Mitchell's comments.
I suppose Cash that we will have to view President Lincoln's colonization program through different lenses (yours are of a more rose coloured hue) since you see the President's attempt to resolve the living and working conditions of four million people as altruistic; while mine are tainted by a politician seeking mercenary and political gain, along with a healthy dose of typical and brilliant, sun-splitting rhetoric.
And the business of relocating such an enormous number of people is absurd when you consider that a great number of blacks were born in the United States, had no knowledge of life in Africa, and were unfamiliar with the language and customs of their ancestors. President Lincoln often referred to "a clime more suited to the negro" but that would only apply to the blacks who were originally taken from their country...yes? Living and working in the heat of the South wouldn't exactly be that much different than the "clime in Africa."
I find it ironic that five days before President Lincoln issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, the federal government signed a contract with Ambrose Thompson for colonization in Chiriqui. It would be interesting to know what the proposed wages for the "free blacks" working in Thompson's coal mines was to be, and what living arrangements had been made for these colonized people. But this too I can research at the library, unless you already have these facts and figures at your disposal.
The day before issuing the E.P., President Lincoln signed a contract for the resettlement of 5,000 free blacks on an island near Haiti, whose contractor was no more than a cruel, unsavoury swindler. This contractor rounded up several hundred ex-slaves and left them on an uninhabited island, where most of them died. I'm certain that these unfortunate, "free blacks" would much rather have remained in the United States.
As much as I would like to discuss the Emancipation Proclamation with you in depth, for now I can only summarize with this question. Do you think that the E.P would have even been considered if President Lincoln thought that blacks would remain in the United States?
The EP was issued to forestall European interference by making it plain, on a diplomatic level, to England and France that the conflict was now pro- versus anti-slavery forces. Neither of them could side with the south under those conditions.
I expect that the question of ex-slaves remaining in the United States was, by then shuffled off into the "we'll cross that bridge" file. He saw a problem in the racial ramifications, but had no solution. By the time the EP was issued (certainly not long thereafter) he had given up trying for a solution and turned his attention to what was looking like a prolonged war.
Ole
"The May, 1862 correspondence between President Lincoln and Reverend James Mitchell was a letter (Rev. Mitchell was also appointed as the Emigration Commissioner to Lincoln's colonization program) and not the 28 page document that you mentioned."
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If you check Morgan's essay you'll see that statement is footnoted #60. Footnote 60 refers to the 18 May 1862 paper, which is the 28-page document I've been referring.
I suppose Cash that we will have to view President Lincoln's colonization program through different lenses (yours are of a more rose coloured hue) since you see the President's attempt to resolve the living and working conditions of four million people as altruistic; while mine are tainted by a politician seeking mercenary and political gain, along with a healthy dose of typical and brilliant, sun-splitting rhetoric.
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And one must wonder, Dawna, why it is that you assume Lincoln was seeking mercenary gain.
Was Robert E. Lee seeking mercenary and political gain when he paid for a family of his slaves to go to Liberia? Were James Madison, James Monroe, and Thomas Jefferson seeking mercenary and political gain when they supported colonization? Were Robert E. Lee's mother and wife seeking mercenary and political gain when they joined the Colonization Society? Why do you automatically assume evil intent on Lincoln's part? Might I suggest you're not being fair to the man?
Sen. James Doolittle of Wisconsin said colonization was "the true Christian-like, statesman-like, and the natural and providential solution of the great American problem."
And the business of relocating such an enormous number of people is absurd when you consider that a great number of blacks were born in the United States, had no knowledge of life in Africa, and were unfamiliar with the language and customs of their ancestors.
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I agree. But in the 19th Century they didn't see this as clearly as we do.
President Lincoln often referred to "a clime more suited to the negro" but that would only apply to the blacks who were originally taken from their country...yes? Living and working in the heat of the South wouldn't exactly be that much different than the "clime in Africa."
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Common thought at the time was that blacks were more suited to tropical climates. This wasn't limited to Lincoln. It was the viewpoint of the majority.
I find it ironic that five days before President Lincoln issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, the federal government signed a contract with Ambrose Thompson for colonization in Chiriqui. It would be interesting to know what the proposed wages for the "free blacks" working in Thompson's coal mines was to be, and what living arrangements had been made for these colonized people. But this too I can research at the library, unless you already have these facts and figures at your disposal.
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I know they had 2 million acres immediately available, and they hoped to get 3 million more acres. The plan was that they would get profits from selling coal to the United States.
The day before issuing the E.P., President Lincoln signed a contract for the resettlement of 5,000 free blacks on an island near Haiti, whose contractor was no more than a cruel, unsavoury swindler.
This contractor rounded up several hundred ex-slaves and left them on an uninhabited island, where most of them died. I'm certain that these unfortunate, "free blacks" would much rather have remained in the United States.
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Not exactly. Here's the real story:
"On December 31, 1862, there was signed a contract by which, for a compensation of $50 per head, **** agreed to colonize 5,000 Negroes, binding himself to furnish the colonies with comfortable homes, garden lots, churches, schools and employ them four years at varying rates. He further agreed to obtain from the Haytian government a guarantee that all such emigrants and their posterity should forever remain free, and in no case be reduced to bondage, slavery or involuntary servitude except for crimes; and they should specially acquire, hold and transmit property and all other privileges of persons common to inhabitants of a country in which they reside. It would be further stipulated that in case of indigence resulting from injury, sickness or age, any such emigrants who should become pauperous should not thereupon he suffered to perish or come to want, but should be supported and cared for as is customary with similar inhabitants of the country in which they should be residents.
"**** also proposed a scheme to certain capitalists in New York and Boston. This had nothing to do with the contract with the President. He proposed to transport 500 of these emigrants at once, begin work on the plantations, and by the end of the following September—a period of eight or nine months—he estimated that this group could raise a crop of 1,000 bales of cotton. It was planned that the colonists should secure from the island a profit of more than 600 per cent in nine months. **** estimated his necessary expenses as $70,000, and all expense incurred by freighting ships and collecting immigrants was to be borne by the government. It soon became known to the government that **** had sought the aid of capitalists and money makers. Suspicion as to the honesty of his purposes was then aroused. It was finally discovered also that he was in league with certain confederates to hand over slaves to him as captured runaways on the condition of receiving a price for their return. Lincoln investigated the matter and discovered that **** was a mere adventurer and the agreement with him was cancelled.
"A certain group of capitalists, whose names are not mentioned, then secured the lease from **** and entered into contract with the government through the Secretary of the Interior, April 6, 1863. Under this agreement a shipload of colonists from the contrabands at Fortress Monroe, said to number 411-435, were embarked. An infectious disease broke out through the presence on board of patients from the military hospital on Craney Island and from twenty to thirty died. On the arrival in the colony no hospitals were ready, no houses were provided, and the resulting conditions were appalling. **** was sent along as Governor, and he is said to have put on the air of a despot and by his neglect of the sick and needy to have made himself obnoxious.
"Rumors of the situation came to the President and he sent a special agent, D. C. Donnohue, who investigated the matter and made a report. Donnohue elaborately described the deplorable situation of the inhabitants, the wretched condition of the small houses and the prevalence of sickness. He further reported that the Haytian government was unwilling that emigrants should remain upon the island and that the emigrants themselves desired to return to the United States. Acting upon the report, the President ordered the Secretary of War to dispatch a vessel to bring home the colonists desiring to return. On the fourth of March the vessel set sail and landed at the Potomac River opposite Alexandria on the twentieth of the same month. On the twelfth of March, 1864, a report was submitted to the Senate showing what portion of the appropriation for colonization had been expended and the several steps which had been taken for the execution of the acts of Congress. On July 2, 1864, Congress repealed its appropriation and no further effort was made at colonization." [Charles H. Wesley, "Lincoln's Plan for Colonizing the Emancipated Negroes," _Journal of Negro History,_ Vol IV, No. 1, January, 1919, pp. 17-20]
As much as I would like to discuss the Emancipation Proclamation with you in depth, for now I can only summarize with this question. Do you think that the E.P would have even been considered if President Lincoln thought that blacks would remain in the United States?
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Absolutely. That's why he provided for enlisting blacks in the army as part of the EP.
Thank you for your response and it's always a pleasure to hear from you.
If you wouldn't mind, I would like to take excerpts from that interesting report of President Lincoln's address to the delegation of Coloured men on August 14, 1862, and also include my own comments/questions etc:
"Owing to the existence of the two races on this continent, I need not
recount to you the effects upon White men, growing out of the
institution of Slavery. I believe in its general evil effects on the
White race. See our present condition--the Country engaged in War! our
white men cutting one another's throats--none knowing how far it will
extend--and then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us, there could not be War, although many men engaged on either side do not care on way or the other. Nevertheless, I
repeat, without the institution of Slavery, and the Colored race as a
basis, the War could not have an existence. It is better for us both,
therefore, to be separated.
"I know that there are Free men among you who, even if they could better
their condition, are not as much inclined to go out of the Country as
those who, being Slaves, could obtain their Freedom on this condition.
I suppose one of the principal difficulties in the way of colonization
is that the free colored man cannot see that his comfort would be
advanced by it. You may believe that you can live in Washington, or
elsewhere in the United States, the remainder of your life; perhaps more
so than you can in any foreign country, and hence you may come to the
conclusion that you have nothing to do with the idea of going to a
foreign country.
"That is, (I speak in no unkind sense) an extremely selfish view of the case. But you ought to do something to help those who are are not so fortunate as yourselves. There is an unwillingness on the part of our People, harsh at it may be, for you free Colored people to remain with us. Now if you could give a start to the White people you would open a wide door for many to be made free. If we deal with those who are not free at the beginning, and whole intellects are clouded by Slavery, we have a very poor material to start with.
If intelligent Colored men, such as are before me, could move in this matter, much might be accomplished. It is exceedingly important that we have men at the beginning capable of thinking as white men, and not those who have been systematically oppressed. There is much to encourage you. Cash, one can not look at these few sentences without realizing just how gifted President Lincoln was in the clever art of manipulation. While reaffirming his views on racial inequality to these 'free blacks,' President Lincoln then indicates to these men that it is important "at the beginning to have men capable of thinking like white men." I find this a strange thing for the president to say, given his consistent stance that blacks were "socially, intellectually, and politically inferior" to whites. In other words, those blacks who managed to gain their freedom, all of a sudden had an attack of the 'smarts?'And then of course there are President Lincoln's not so subtle attempts at trying to convince these men that it would be highly 'selfish' of them to even consider remaining in the United States.
"For the sake of your race you should sacrifice something of your
present comfort for the purpose of being as grand in that respect as the
White people. It is a cheering thought throughout life, that something
can be done to ameliorate the condition of those who have been subject
to the hard usages of the World. It is difficult to make a man
miserable while he feels he is worthy of himself and claims kindred to
the great God who made him.
"In the American Revolutionary War, sacrifices were made by men engaged
in it, but they were cheered by the future. General Washington himself
endured greater physical hardships than if he had remained a British
subject, yet he was a happy man, because he was engaged in benefiting
his race, in doing something for the children of his neighbors, having
none of his own.
"The Colony of Liberia has been in existence a long time. In a certain
sense it is a success. The old President of Liberia, Roberts, has just
been with me the first time I ever saw him. He says they have, within
the bounds of that Colony, between three and four hundred thousand
people, or more than in some of our old States, such as Rhode Island, or
Delaware, or in some of our newer States, and less than in some of our
larger ones. They are not all American colonists or their descendants.
Something less than 12,000 have been sent thither from this Country.
Many of the original settlers have died, yet, like people elsewhere,
their offspring outnumber those deceased.
"The question is, if the Colored people are persuaded to go anywhere, why not there? One reason for unwillingness to do so is that some of you would rather remain within reach of the country of your nativity. I do not know how much attachment you may have toward our race. It does not strike me that you have the greatest reason to love them. But still you are attached to them at all events."
Our comments from a previous posting: (Mine) "Many blacks wanted to stay in the United
States, but didn't have that option under
President Lincoln's colonization program." Cash: "That is absolutely untrue, Dawna.
Lincoln was ALWAYS for voluntary
colonization."
I would like to suggest that President Lincoln's bolded comments from above would indicate otherwise - many blacks did not want to leave their home of birth. If that were untrue, I doubt if Lincoln would have felt the need to enlist support from 'free blacks,' to further his cause; and additionally try to convince these men that they too should leave the United States in order to set a shining example of "unselfishness" to those men who were 'not as intelligent, due to the hindrance of their enforced oppression.'
"The place I am thinking about having for a colony, is in Central
America. It is nearer to us than Liberia--not much more than one-fourth
as far as Liberia, and within seven days' run by steamers. Unlike
Liberia, it is a great line of travel--it is a highway. The country is
a very excellent one for any people, and with great natural resources
and advantages, and especially because of the similarity of climate with
your native soil, thus being suited to your physical condition.
"The particular place I have in view, is to be a great highway from the
Atlantic or Caribbean Sea to the Pacific Ocean, and this particular
place has all the advantages for a colony. On both sides there are
harbors among the finest in the World. Again, there is evidence of very
rich coal mines. A certain amount of coal is valuable in any country.
Why I attach so much importance to coal is, it will afford an
opportunity to the inhabitants for immediate employment till they get
ready to settle permanently in their homes.
"If you take colonists where there is no good landing, there is a bad
show; and so, where there is nothing to cultivate, and of which to make
a farm. But if something is started so that you can get your daily
bread as soon as you reach there, it is a great advantage. Coal land is
the best thing I know of, with which to commence an enterprise.
"To return--you have been talked to upon this subject, and told that a
speculation is intended by gentlemen who have an interest in the
country, including the coal mines. We have been mistaken all our lives
if we do not know Whites, as well as Blacks, look to their self-
interest. Unless among those deficient of intellect, everybody you
trade with makes something. You meet with these things here and
everywhere. If such persons have what will be an advantage to them, the
question is, whether it cannot be made of advantage to you?
"You are intelligent, and you know that success does not much depend on external help, as on self-reliance. Much, therefore, depends upon yourselves." As to the coal mines, I think I see the means available for
your self-reliance. I shall, if I get a sufficient number of you
engaged, have provision made that you shall not be wronged. If you will
engage in the enterprise, I will spend some of the money intrusted to
me. I am not sure you will succeed. The Government may lose the money,
but we cannot succeed unless we try; but we think, with care, we can
succeed.
"The political affairs in Central America are not in quite as
satisfactory condition as I wish. There are contending factions in that
quarter; but it is true, all the factions are agreed alike on the
subject of colonization, and want it; and are more generous than we are
here. To your Colored race they have no objection. Besides, I would
endeavor to have you made equals, and have the best assurance that you
should be the equals of the best.
"The practical thing I want to ascertain is, whether I can get a number
of able-bodied men, with their wives and children, who are willing to
go, when I present evidence of encouragement and protection. Could I
get a hundred tolerably intelligent men, with their wives and children,
and able to 'cut their own fodder' so to speak? Can I have fifty? If I
could find twenty-five able-bodied men, with a mixture of women and
children--good things in the family relation, I think I could make a
successful commencement.
It's clear that President Lincoln's colonization project fell through in Central America because of the quality of the coal deposits, and also because there was a very deeply-rooted disinclination of the 'coloured free men' to leave their place of birth.
From your last posting, you said: "Sen. James Doolittle of Wisconsin said colonization was "the true Christian-like, statesman-like, and the natural and providential solution of the great American problem."
Not everyone felt that way Cash, including Frederick Douglass, and again, his comments regarding colonization from my previous posting: "It expresses merely the desire to get rid of them, and reminds one of the politeness with which a man might try to bow out of his house some troublesome creditor or the witness of some old guilt."
I'm sorry that this posting is so long but I would like to address one final comment that you made. You said: "I know they had 2 million acres immediately available, and they hoped to get 3 million more acres. The plan was that they would get profits from selling coal to the United States."
I really am not trying to be unfair to President Lincoln, but given his connection to Ambrose Thompson, do you not see the least mercenary trends in the original undertaking of the Chiquiri Project?
I'll look forward to discussing the Emancipation Proclamation with you in future, but I'm sure by that time I'll need bifocals along with meals on wheels!
I find this a strange thing for the president to say,
given his consistent stance that blacks were
"socially, intellectually, and politically inferior" to whites.
I expected better from you. It has often been demonstrated that, 'though Lincoln may have felt that way, as did virtually every other white in that age, he NEVER said that on record. You know that. You've been on this thread from the beginning. But you come back to the statement above.
It's obvious that Lincoln hated slavery, but he would tolerate it until it died off on its own. It's obvious that he wanted blacks out of the country. And it's also obvious that he wanted them out under conditions beneficial to them.
His reasoning was also apparent: Blacks were not going to get a fair shake, free or slave. There was too much prejudice to accommodate them.They would be better off making their lives where there were no whites to oppress them.
That was not to be, but might you admit that his vision might have turned out better than it did during the next 200 years?
If you expected better of me, then I'm not certain in what way. The reason that I've come back to that statement in this particular instance is because of the dichotomy in what President Lincoln was actually saying to the free black men in this meeting, and his belief (like everyone else) that blacks were intellectually inferior - I have never said that President Lincoln didn't think slavery was wrong.
After reading the record of this meeting several times, it appears to me that Lincoln is suggesting to the 'free blacks' that they are more intelligent because they are not/have not been hindered by slavery...this doesn't make sense to me and I am trying to understand the reasoning behind that statement. It's intent seems suspicious but I suppose the problem is mine, since I don't view President Lincoln in the same light as you or others do. I see an obvious attempt at manipulation.
What may be apparent and fundamental reasoning to you, is light years away in understanding for me. In order to take two steps forward, and in this case with President Lincoln's colonization program, I have to go back and and retrace my steps, re-examine evidence, and try to make sense out of things that are often senseless to me. Every time I think I have an answer or have finally reached a satisfactory conclusion, some past phrase or wording nags at me and I have to go digging again. I wish it were otherwise, because I would save myself a lot of time and effort if I could simply stop asking questions.
Ole, your conclusions are your own and are formulated I would guess, after years of study. Mine are new, unfamiliar, and often awkward. I can't possibly look at Lincoln's colonization program without bringing up other issues, and statements that seem contradictory to me. That doesn't make me unable to admit, in the end, that Lincoln had a bigger and better vision than I can comprehend at the moment; but it does allow me to plod along and chip away at this in my own fashion. I can't do better or less than that.
I'm sorry I haven't gotten to this sooner, but I wanted to make sure I read the entire post carefully before responding.
Cash, one can not look at these few sentences without realizing just how gifted President Lincoln was in the clever art of manipulation.
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Only if one assumes a priori that he was manipulating anyone and not speaking from the heart. If we take him at his word we see no manipulation.
While reaffirming his views on racial inequality to these 'free blacks,' President Lincoln then indicates to these men that it is important "at the beginning to have men capable of thinking like white men." I
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He reaffirmed his view that blacks could not be treated as equals in the United States due to the persistence of what eventually became called racism.
find this a strange thing for the president to say, given his consistent stance that blacks were "socially, intellectually, and politically inferior" to whites.
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I disagree strenuously. That was never his stance. That they were politically or socially inferior was not an inherent trait but rather a reflection of how white society treated them, and Lincoln is not responsible for that. But he never expressed the opinion that they were intellectually inferior. He said at one point that "perhaps" they were not intellectually equal to whites, but that is not at all the same as saying they were intellectually inferior to whites.
And then of course there are President Lincoln's not so subtle attempts at trying to convince these men that it would be highly 'selfish' of them to even consider remaining in the United States.
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You make the assumption that he didn't believe it himself. Again, you are not being fair to the man. I maintain he sincerely believed what he was telling them.
Our comments from a previous posting: (Mine) "Many blacks wanted to stay in the United
States, but didn't have that option under
President Lincoln's colonization program." Cash: "That is absolutely untrue, Dawna.
Lincoln was ALWAYS for voluntary
colonization."
I would like to suggest that President Lincoln's bolded comments from above would indicate otherwise -
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What part of the word "persuaded" is incongruent with "voluntary?" They would not be forced to go. He depended on persuasion.
many blacks did not want to leave their home of birth. If that were untrue, I doubt if Lincoln would have felt the need to enlist support from 'free blacks,' to further his cause; and additionally try to convince these men that they too should leave the United States in order to set a shining example of "unselfishness" to those men who were 'not as intelligent, due to the hindrance of their enforced oppression.'
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Again, his program was all about persuasion and voluntary colonization. Nothing in his program would have forced anyone to go anywhere they didn't want to go.
From your last posting, you said: "Sen. James Doolittle of Wisconsin said colonization was "the true Christian-like, statesman-like, and the natural and providential solution of the great American problem."
Not everyone felt that way Cash, including Frederick Douglass, and again, his comments regarding colonization from my previous posting: "It expresses merely the desire to get rid of them, and reminds one of the politeness with which a man might try to bow out of his house some troublesome creditor or the witness of some old guilt."
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I never said the feeling was 100% throughout the country, but it was very widespread.
I'm sorry that this posting is so long but I would like to address one final comment that you made. You said: "I know they had 2 million acres immediately available, and they hoped to get 3 million more acres. The plan was that they would get profits from selling coal to the United States."
I really am not trying to be unfair to President Lincoln, but given his connection to Ambrose Thompson, do you not see the least mercenary trends in the original undertaking of the Chiquiri Project?
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No. Not at all. How else to get the financial backing for the project than with an investor? And how else to get an investor than with the possibility of the investor receiving a profit from the venture? That is, after all, why the vast majority of investors risk their money.
I'll look forward to discussing the Emancipation Proclamation with you in future, but I'm sure by that time I'll need bifocals along with meals on wheels!
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"He was preeminently the white man's President, entirely devoted to the welfare of white men. He was ready and willing at any time during the first years of his administration to deny, postpone, and sacrifice the rights of humanity in the colored people to promote the welfare of the white people of this country. In all his education and feeling he was an American of the Americans. He came into the Presidential chair upon one princiole alone, namely, opposition to the extension of slavery. His arguments in furtherance of this policy had their motive and mainspring in his patriotic devotion to the interests of his own race. To protect, defend, and perpetuate slavery in the states where it existed Abraham Lincoln was not less ready than any other President to draw the sword of the nation. He was ready to execute all the supposed guarantees of the United States Constitution in favor of the slave system anywhere inside the slave states. He was willing to pursue, recapture, and send back the fugitive slave to his master, and to suppress a slave rising for liberty,..."
Any takers?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Neil, my guess would be Frederick Douglass, but really I don't know. I'm sure it's obvious to the major players posting on this thread what the answer is. The level of thought going into these posts is astonishing. It's a major aspect of the Civil War era that, frankly, I haven't put much thought into. The discussion here is on a very high level, much higher than the top of my head. I am loathe to admit that I'm not following it all that well, but I am reading it, and hopefully learning from it, at least a little. My hunch is that there are folks, not members of the board, who are also following along with this thread. I'm talking about Civil War scholars, authors, historians, history professors and students. Do you ever take notice of the number of guests constantly viewing these boards?
Anyway, thanks to Neil, Cash, Bill, Dawna (please don't sell yourself short Dawna.Your questions and comments reveal a deep understanding of the issues), Ole, Russ, Larry. There are others too. If this thread ever concludes, you should get this published, (maybe a university?), as an incisive, probing, analysis of slavery and the EP. You should include the thread on the EP also.
Many thanks to you all for your posts. I'm humbled by the depth of your knowledge and analytical thinking.
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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