Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Beowulf, Lee could not do so. He was no politician, thank God for that, he had too much integrity. Saying the CS still exists is a joke, men who were actually there knew it was over; a few stay behinders and wannabes thought otherwise and still do.
Sherman ripped the guts out of the CS, then Appomatox and Johnston and a little later the last surrenders with Stand Watie. The war was over and the CS was well and truly dead. Those who wish to resurrect it simply speak treason today. But to my constant amusement US authorities look at them as nothing more than an effette joke, less dangerous than illiterate goat herders. To me that is fitting. One is all talk, the other is actually dangerous and would just as easily kill the League of the Souther as me.
I'm reminded of a post war incident, a Southerner was preaching to the four winds about how the CS had not lost, never been beaten. A former CS General walked up to him and asked if he had served. He replied in the negative; "I did; and we were beaten." Wannabe vs a man who was there; the man who was there said all that need be said on the matter.
Men like Forrest and Lee knew it was over. Both are men who would have known that salient fact quite well.
The CS govt failed the "south" not the CS soldier. It was the CS soldier who was beaten in the field. The CS govt fell apart under the weight of its own incompetance. And with it slavery in the US died an ignoble death.
You act as if the man who said WE WERE BEATEN had changed sides, or something...
Being BEATEN makes the North right, in your estimation?
Did the man say this?
Knowing it is over, and accepting defeat does not mean they accept that they were wrong, nor that they apologize for fighting back...
SLAVERY and ACCEPTING DEFEAT; you get a whole lot of miles out of these terms not envisioned by those who were there...
Your hostility, and that of the rest of the North, and the
Left, to this moment, is not patriotic...
there has never been a division between North and South that WASN'T a collectivist section party platform, since the Revolutionary War, and DAY ONE...
...it is sectional politics; just as it was fueled and fanned into flames in those days...
When you see this, if you ever do, you will begin to understand us better.
You act as if the man who said WE WERE BEATEN had changed sides, or something...
Being BEATEN makes the North right, in your estimation?
Did the man say this?
...
Assuming you are talking about Robert E. Lee (it is very hard to follow the rants you post), the answer would be "Yes, he did."
Before the Civil War, Robert E. Lee did not believe the "right of secession" existed, comparing it to anarchy and calling it treason and saying the Founding Fathers had never intended it to exist. He felt compelled to side with Virginia, no matter what, and so he joined the Confederacy. After the Civil War, Lee considered the entire matter to have been resolved de facto by Union victory: there was no "right of secession".
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
I have no problem discussing history. I have no problem debating it or even disagreeing over it.
I will not recreate it.
Unionblue
"Lee was told by one of his men that He was the South, He was the government. Do not deny history. Although not all the men surrendered at Appomattox, Southern armies continued to surrender until all had done so, except for the few who fled overseas".
Lee was never the government, and refused to be that government. Military and politics should never mingle, according to Lee. NEVER.
"This is an emotional response to a historical fact that the South did surrender, one army at a time, but it did eventually surrender".
No, it did not. It collapsed. It was killed. The Spartans never surrendered, and neither did the South.
"It was done with much pain and resentment with old wounds and bad memories, but the nation is reunited. The only people who seem to contest that cannot seem to get over a four year period in our nation's history".
Was this necessary?The Northern attitudes to the South, to this moment, do not permit a Union on an equal footing. The slaves are gone. The wealth of the South never returned, except in a few yankee stronghold cities,
and the winners have never reached across the aisles and said anything but something to do with SLAVERY as a racist institution promulgated by the South. The citizen South has never been separated from its government, and accepted as a victim of the Confederacy... not even the outright Unionists in this area who died under Hunter's Raid... You will forgive us if we don't trust you!
"But if you think any terrorist is going to take the time to sort out Southern Americans for Northern ones, go ahead and give it a try. To the world, we are all Yankees. We are all Americans".
You think we don't know this about terrorists? We have been like the bumper stickers say: FIGHTING TERRORISM SINCE 1861. The yankees did not stop and ask allegiances. They just destroyed anyone and everything down there at the time...
"There was. At Appomattox. The fighting ended and the men went home".
So a CEASEFIRE and a SURRENDER of an army is a RECONCILIATION? You missed my point, entirely, and I think, wilfully...
"People speak all the time about the South, the Confederacy, about the history of the war. Take your pick".
And you continue to reload and shoot at them for doing so...
"It is the continual downplaying of slavery as the cause of the war that is 'detrimental to the understanding of the issue,' the continuing campaign to hide it, distort it, shove into a dark corner like it never existed. This is the true harm, ignoring or destroying a part of history that NEEDS to be remembered and learned from".
It is the continual sectionalizing of the Institution for the purposes of propaganda on the Northern side that
distort it, and making the negro a victim when the entire South were the real victims, black and white...
"As Lincoln said, slavery was a national sin that God had pretty much decided had to be washed away in blood and treasure".
Well, "GOD" HAS SPOKEN, hasn't "He"?
"He also said if the South was a great user of slaves, than the North had to bear the sin of being great carriers of slaves. When it comes to slavery, there's enough blame to go around".
Being the Great Carriers of Slaves would seem to be a misdemeanor these days; Owning them is the Federal Capital Felony...
"The nation, not just the South, but the entire nation must recognize the historical, undeniable fact, that the South left the Union over the issue of slavery thus bringing on the Civil War. It isn't right, it isn't wrong, but it is a historical fact".
The entire nation needs to understand that how this was handled by the abolitionists and the sectional left of the day brought on the Secession... for whatever reasons dealing with Slavery or yankees, in general...
History cannot be met halfway. It is what it is, and no amount of compromise is going to make it anything else.
So just tell it all! We don't want a review of the final score; we just want the post-game show to explain the whole event; From the taking out of our quarterback Jackson in the first quarter... to the reasons a team with more aggregate players on the benches could save their
strength by rotating men more than our fewer numbers could muster....
It may denegrate your WIN, but it doesn't take it away from you to tell it all...
The economy of slavery. If the "South" had not felt it threatened there would have been no war. No matter how you try, how you cloud the issue w/ smoke and mirrors slavery is that 800 pound pig wallowing in the mud behind you.
The fact remains...
The North cared nothing for slaves...and waged war against the South to re$tore the $tatu$ quo.
Quote:
It isn't, wasn't the south but the Confederacy. Southern doesn't mean Confederate and Confederate doesn't mean southern.
Your opinion...not ours.
Quote:
Too many non slaveowners and no slaveowning areas remained loyal to the US over the CS. Whole areas of states.
This is one of the current crazes of the neo-radical set of 'historians'...and a much overrated one.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Still no info on those 'other' (non-slave related) issues that 'actually' was the cause of the Civil War.
How many organized military units were provided by the south to fight for the Union; compared with those of the North to fight for southern independence?
All we get from neo-revisionist IS opinion. Still I guess it is better that they make little pretense (on this board at least) of really trying to establish facts of any kind; as opposed to opinions.
The fact remains...
The North cared nothing for slaves...and waged war against the South to re$tore the $tatu$ quo. No, the US was shot at, they returned fire until the other guy gave up.
Your opinion...not ours. The opinion of quite a few Southerners, better than 250,000 IIRC who served the US. I know about 180,000 were USCT and black which disqualifies them as southerners in some eyes. But they were southerners, their descendents are outherners add to that East TN, North Georgia and large chunks of other states and suddenly it isn't just North against South.
This is one of the current crazes of the neo-radical set of 'historians'...and a much overrated one.
Overrated or shrilly shouted down by the Lost Cause... so much for the solid south behind secesch. History, actual history instead of the Lost Cause talking points spouted by Pastor Beowulf and Brother Battalion.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
You act as if the man who said WE WERE BEATEN had changed sides, or something... No, a soldier who saw reality was talking to an IwishIwas who hadn't.
Being BEATEN makes the North right, in your estimation?
Did the man say this? No, you are. A victory under arms is the deciding factor no matter how noble. The winner wins, the loser loses.
Knowing it is over, and accepting defeat does not mean they accept that they were wrong, nor that they apologize for fighting back... Again your speaking, putting words in other peoples mouthes. Putting your agenda into others words and actions.
SLAVERY and ACCEPTING DEFEAT; you get a whole lot of miles out of these terms not envisioned by those who were there... Actually I stick to the words of the men who did the fighting and dieing and try to avoid those of the politicians and members of the wannabe tribe.
Your hostility, and that of the rest of the North, and the
Left, to this moment, is not patriotic... Hostility... because I request honesty and integrity instead of Lost Cause/LOS revisionist crap? I'm a leftist now? Please grow up and leave your modern political agenda out of it. I'm just to the left of Genghis Khan.
there has never been a division between North and South that WASN'T a collectivist section party platform, since the Revolutionary War, and DAY ONE...I wish to the good lord you could avoid your neo political rants and actually look at history, instead of the fiction you and others write.
...it is sectional politics; just as it was fueled and fanned into flames in those days...
When you see this, if you ever do, you will begin to understand us better. I don't really want to understand you, you mourn a lost hopeless cause founded upon a despicable institution. One that is/was far from noble in my eyes. I see the actions of your hero as base treason and little else. It's my opinion, I've a right to it.
I pray you arrive there soon, my friend! Another who calls me friend in one and would as soon as stick a knife in my back as not, you presume too much.
Beowulf
Why cross the aisle to meet those who would destroy you? That is what you ask any to do who would believe the Lost Cause version of history. Trying to destroy the US since well before 1861... and using any means to do so.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
