Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Try to focus here, Blue. I realize this may be too much for you, but rise up from the 4th grade for just a few minutes, and I'll let you slide right back into it again...
so you can get back to the pretty pictures in your McPherson coloring books!
The reader of many of the treatises on these events, which have been put forth as historical, if dependent upon such alone for information, might naturally enough be led to the conclusion that the controversies which arose between the States, and the war in which they culminated, were caused by efforts on the one side to extend and perpetuate human slavery, and on the other to resist it and establish human liberty. The Southern States and Southern people have been sedulously represented as "propagandists" of slavery, and the Northern as the defenders and champions of universal freedom, and this view has been so arrogantly assumed, so dogmatically asserted, and so persistently reiterated, that its authors have, in many cases, perhaps, succeeded in bringing themselves to believe it, as well as in impressing it widely upon the world.
The attentive reader of the preceding chapters—especially if he has compared their statements with contemporaneous records and other original sources of information—will already have found evidence enough to enable him to discern the falsehood of these representations, and to perceive that, to whatever extent the question of slavery may have served as an occasion, it was far from being the cause of the conflict.
It was not the passage of the "personal liberty laws," it was not the circulation of incendiary documents, it was not the raid of John Brown, it was not the operation of unjust and unequal tariff laws, nor all combined, that constituted the intolerable grievance, but it was the systematic and persistent struggle to deprive the Southern States of equality in the Union—generally to discriminate in legislation against the interests of their people; culminating in their exclusion from the Territories, the common property of the States, as well as by the infraction of their compact to promote domestic tranquillity.
What resource for justice—what assurance of tranquillity—what guarantee of safety—now remained for the South? Still forbearing, still hoping, still striving for peace and union, we waited until a sectional President, nominated by a sectional convention, elected by a sectional vote—and that the vote of a minority of the people—was about to be inducted into office, under the warning of his own distinct announcement that the Union could not permanently endure "half slave and half free"; meaning thereby that it could not continue to exist in the condition in which it was formed and its Constitution adopted. The leader of his party, who was to be the chief of his Cabinet, was the man who had first proclaimed an "irrepressible conflict" between the North and the South, and who had declared that abolitionism, having triumphed in the Territories, would proceed to the invasion of the States. Even then the Southern people did not finally despair until the temper of the triumphant party had been tested in Congress and found adverse to any terms of reconciliation consistent with the honor and safety of all parties.
No alternative remained except to seek the security out of the Union which they had vainly tried to obtain within it. The hope of our people may be stated in a sentence. It was to escape from injury and strife in the Union, to find prosperity and peace out of it. The mode and principles of their action will next be presented.
Got it?!
Now, I'll explain to you how this works.
Let's say all these Mexicans roaming around here illegally are suddenly given not only citizenship, but are, thanks to a 'vote', actually being paid to be here. A political party comes to power who relies upon their vote, and who gives them patronage, and who
benefits from their vote to the extent that we are basically now living in Mexico...
Spanish becomes a rival language to English. The black and white citizens who used to work for low minimum wages are worse off than these fake citizens, and preference through AFFIRMATIVE ACTION has to hire these people before anyone else.
When I went on Daytona Beach PD in 1984, I was told that I would have to wait several months to be hired because I was not a BLACK FEMALE. I KNOW THIS STUFF HAPPENS! And thanks to Carter, how it happened...
This is how the NON-SLAVE OWNING white Southerners who were NOT white trash (the majority of them - the 94% who didn't partake of slavery) got involved in SLAVERY...
Or rather, how SLAVERY affected them.
It was YANKEE INTERFERENCE in matters which did not concern them which caused the problems... as always...
So the war was over, if we must simplify it so YOU can catch on....
YANKEE INTERFERENCE.
Now, let's say that the influx of these Mexicans now causes their gangs to walk the streets without a massive attempt to control them...
And guess what?
The pre-1872 Ku Klux Klan forms again, borrows a Confederate flag from an SCV group (because they haven't owned one themselves, since the 60's, but are once again doing the work of protecting citizens through FORCE, and thus begin to set matters straight through vigilante-ism because THE GOVERNMENT is powerless to do anything ever but make matters worse!!!!) and starts patrolling the streets. And God help us all when THAT happens...
AS ALWAYS, when the nutcases get elected to office...
Those who were once known as FEDERALISTS and WHIGS...
And now, you begin to see the problems with turning four million mostly illiterate people loose on an economy simply because a yankee thinks he knows 'best'...
Wages become worthless.
Jobs non-existent.
Terrorism on both sides paramount. The police are helpless to react. And are stymied by
a new series of 'hate crime laws' aimed at keeping these Mexicans from being persecuted.
Families do not feel safe, even the Mexican families who are fake citizens, who would be the first victims of this gang violence.
People who once had enough to live in poverty are now starving to death.
And the REAL MEXICAN CITIZENS, who have always lived here legally, are being persecuted beyond all reason, due to governmentally-approved tactics which result in racism heretofore not known...
Basically, it is anarchy, and by a political party who doesn't know its place nor has any sense of the real world...
THIS is what the NEGRO faced, both the 250,000 freed in the South, and the 4 million slave, in this system... This is what the entire SOUTH faced... both Black and White.
MASSA is no longer responsible for feeding this tribe, any longer, nor can he do so...
And the starvation begins, even without a war...
The South had the situation under control, in the Institution of Slavery.
The North sought to destroy that, and to destroy their politically-Conservative rivals, in the same instant.
Just so that one 'Abraham Lincoln' could claim to be the president.
Beowulf; if you're going to stoop to personal insults abot the education level of someone like Unionblue... perhaps you should look in a mirror.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Beowulf; if you're going to stoop to personal insults abot the education level of someone like Unionblue... perhaps you should look in a mirror.
Personal insults? Not at all, sir!
The WAR WAS OVER SLAVERY is a Fourth Grade FIXTURE
in our society! We went to Appomattox IN THE FOURTH GRADE. It is a reference time, only...
McPherson simplifies, and does paint pretty little pictures of a complicated time...
They are egregiously INACCURATE, but the victims are Southern, so NO ONE CARES...
Were YOU not indoctrinated with this, early on?
Do not my little ones come home to me with this nonsense? And do I not send them back with enough response to justify their place in history, so they can hold their heads up and
accept the truth of their heritage?
Get Real!
Even he, like 5Fish, the other day, knows better!
No insult meant...
It's a fact...
THIS IS FOURTH GRADE LEVEL 'FREE THE SLAVES -PRESERVE THE UNION' BLATHER!
The WAR WAS OVER SLAVERY is a Fourth Grade FIXTURE
in our society! We went to Appomattox IN THE FOURTH GRADE. It is a reference time, only... Bull, it was a incompetently framed insult.
McPherson simplifies, and does paint pretty little pictures of a complicated time...
They are egregiously INACCURATE, but the victims are Southern, so NO ONE CARES...
Were YOU not indoctrinated with this, early on? No, I never had ACW in Grade or HS. At best a chapter which we skipped across. Same was true in the south when I was helping at Public schools. No indoctrination, students were to memorize the Gettysburg Address; w/ no idea what it was about and those were 6th graders not 4th.
Do not my little ones come home to me with this nonsense?
Get Real! I am very real.
Even he, like 5Fish, the other day, knows better! Only because you deleted the post; I suspect 5fish never saw it but I don't know.
No insult meant... It isn't the first time; somehow I don't believe you.
It's a fact...
THIS IS FOURTH GRADE LEVEL 'FREE THE SLAVES -PRESERVE THE UNION' BLATHER!
And should be understood as such... You can't refute Unionblue's research so you call him a child.
Beowulf
In other words, figure out a way to talk to members here as you would have them speak to you. If someone were to call you a 4th grader... I suspect you would whine and cry about it. Let me make it clear to you. Unionblue didn't complain; he wouldn't be likely to. I do take umbrage. Your modern political agenda grows very old and my patience and tolerence for such grows very thin.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
In other words, figure out a way to talk to members here as you would have them speak to you. If someone were to call you a 4th grader... I suspect you would whine and cry about it. Let me make it clear to you. Unionblue didn't complain; he wouldn't be likely to. I do take umbrage. Your modern political agenda grows very old and my patience and tolerence for such grows very thin.
Ask 5Fish to explain to you the way Ole also took up for him when there was no need to do so.
5Fish and Unionblue are diametrically opposed to me, in these discussions. But when we have banter, it is enjoyed on both sides, else we would not engage...
You have come to Unionblue's aid when he has apparently not asked for such help.
I meant no such insult in either instance. 5Fish took none, neither did Unionblue. I should have been shocked if he in fact had taken offense.
Insult does not further my cause, which is to get the facts of the Southern Cause studied more closely...
I would that all men see my point, and not be offended by it.
We all went through the 4th grade. There is no shame in that, except if we continue to believe the over-simplified
stories we were told. I want to get us beyond such over simplifications...
If that is okay with you...
McPherson might have cause to feel insulted, but then, he is only making his living... so what of that?
I am sure I feel no hostility toward you senators from the NORTH. There have been points of collision. But whatever offense there has been to me... I leave here. I carry with me no hostile remembrance. Whatever pain, which, in the heat of discussion, I have inflicted, or for which satisfaction has not been demanded, I have, senators, ... in this hour, to offer you my apology......
Try to focus here, Blue. I realize this may be too much for you, but rise up from the 4th grade for just a few minutes, and I'll let you slide right back into it again... so you can get back to the pretty pictures in your McPherson coloring books!
The reader of many of the treatises on these events, which have been put forth as historical, if dependent upon such alone for information, might naturally enough be led to the conclusion that the controversies which arose between the States, and the war in which they culminated, were caused by efforts on the one side to extend and perpetuate human slavery, and on the other to resist it and establish human liberty. The Southern States and Southern people have been sedulously represented as "propagandists" of slavery, and the Northern as the defenders and champions of universal freedom, and this view has been so arrogantly assumed, so dogmatically asserted, and so persistently reiterated, that its authors have, in many cases, perhaps, succeeded in bringing themselves to believe it, as well as in impressing it widely upon the world.
The attentive reader of the preceding chapters—especially if he has compared their statements with contemporaneous records and other original sources of information—will already have found evidence enough to enable him to discern the falsehood of these representations, and to perceive that, to whatever extent the question of slavery may have served as an occasion, it was far from being the cause of the conflict.
It was not the passage of the "personal liberty laws," it was not the circulation of incendiary documents, it was not the raid of John Brown, it was not the operation of unjust and unequal tariff laws, nor all combined, that constituted the intolerable grievance, but it was the systematic and persistent struggle to deprive the Southern States of equality in the Union—generally to discriminate in legislation against the interests of their people; culminating in their exclusion from the Territories, the common property of the States, as well as by the infraction of their compact to promote domestic tranquillity.
What resource for justice—what assurance of tranquillity—what guarantee of safety—now remained for the South? Still forbearing, still hoping, still striving for peace and union, we waited until a sectional President, nominated by a sectional convention, elected by a sectional vote—and that the vote of a minority of the people—was about to be inducted into office, under the warning of his own distinct announcement that the Union could not permanently endure "half slave and half free"; meaning thereby that it could not continue to exist in the condition in which it was formed and its Constitution adopted. The leader of his party, who was to be the chief of his Cabinet, was the man who had first proclaimed an "irrepressible conflict" between the North and the South, and who had declared that abolitionism, having triumphed in the Territories, would proceed to the invasion of the States. Even then the Southern people did not finally despair until the temper of the triumphant party had been tested in Congress and found adverse to any terms of reconciliation consistent with the honor and safety of all parties.
No alternative remained except to seek the security out of the Union which they had vainly tried to obtain within it. The hope of our people may be stated in a sentence. It was to escape from injury and strife in the Union, to find prosperity and peace out of it. The mode and principles of their action will next be presented.
Got it?!
Now, I'll explain to you how this works.
Let's say all these Mexicans roaming around here illegally are suddenly given not only citizenship, but are, thanks to a 'vote', actually being paid to be here. A political party comes to power who relies upon their vote, and who gives them patronage, and who
benefits from their vote to the extent that we are basically now living in Mexico...
Spanish becomes a rival language to English. The black and white citizens who used to work for low minimum wages are worse off than these fake citizens, and preference through AFFIRMATIVE ACTION has to hire these people before anyone else.
When I went on Daytona Beach PD in 1984, I was told that I would have to wait several months to be hired because I was not a BLACK FEMALE. I KNOW THIS STUFF HAPPENS! And thanks to Carter, how it happened...
This is how the NON-SLAVE OWNING white Southerners who were NOT white trash (the majority of them - the 94% who didn't partake of slavery) got involved in SLAVERY...
Or rather, how SLAVERY affected them.
It was YANKEE INTERFERENCE in matters which did not concern them which caused the problems... as always...
So the war was over, if we must simplify it so YOU can catch on....
YANKEE INTERFERENCE.
Now, let's say that the influx of these Mexicans now causes their gangs to walk the streets without a massive attempt to control them...
And guess what?
The pre-1872 Ku Klux Klan forms again, borrows a Confederate flag from an SCV group (because they haven't owned one themselves, since the 60's, but are once again doing the work of protecting citizens through FORCE, and thus begin to set matters straight through vigilante-ism because THE GOVERNMENT is powerless to do anything ever but make matters worse!!!!) and starts patrolling the streets. And God help us all when THAT happens...
AS ALWAYS, when the nutcases get elected to office...
Those who were once known as FEDERALISTS and WHIGS...
And now, you begin to see the problems with turning four million mostly illiterate people loose on an economy simply because a yankee thinks he knows 'best'...
Wages become worthless.
Jobs non-existent.
Terrorism on both sides paramount. The police are helpless to react. And are stymied by
a new series of 'hate crime laws' aimed at keeping these Mexicans from being persecuted.
Families do not feel safe, even the Mexican families who are fake citizens, who would be the first victims of this gang violence.
People who once had enough to live in poverty are now starving to death.
And the REAL MEXICAN CITIZENS, who have always lived here legally, are being persecuted beyond all reason, due to governmentally-approved tactics which result in racism heretofore not known...
Basically, it is anarchy, and by a political party who doesn't know its place nor has any sense of the real world...
THIS is what the NEGRO faced, both the 250,000 freed in the South, and the 4 million slave, in this system... This is what the entire SOUTH faced... both Black and White.
MASSA is no longer responsible for feeding this tribe, any longer, nor can he do so...
And the starvation begins, even without a war...
The South had the situation under control, in the Institution of Slavery.
The North sought to destroy that, and to destroy their politically-Conservative rivals, in the same instant.
Just so that one 'Abraham Lincoln' could claim to be the president.
Beowulf
October 6, 2004, Post #22 of this thread, posted by Unionblue.
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
The South has to eternally live down this event which happened at Appomattox, even though the South never surrendered there... only 8,000 of Lee's men.
The South, in fact, never surrendered. Neither did the Confederate government. Davis was captured, refused to ask for pardon, and was released on his own recognizance... forever.
No surrender.
The signs which proclaim WHERE OUR NATION REUNITED are wrong...
We did not reunite there. It may well have been WWI before any such thing took place...
There has never been a Federal ceremony to reunite the country... why not? Why not a Fifth of July event, to
honor both sides, like the reenactments do?
WHO SPEAKS FOR US, NOW?
This continued hammering of SLAVERY is, as Davis said, detrimental to the understanding of the issue...
It makes the North look like the Negroes' deliverers, which they weren't. Ever.
It makes the South look like racist swine, and their flag a racist swastika... which it isn't...
Meet us halfway. We are MORE THAN THERE, ALREADY, SIR.
RE Lee considered it a surrender & the men who actually fought for the CS considered it a surrender. All that need be said regardless of what the wannabes and IwishIwas had to say on the matter.
It's evident there are something in the neighborhood of 297 pages on this thread that have been ignored.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
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