Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Politics is about control of government, so what else is new? Oh yes, although a minority in everything except ownership of slaves, the slave owning oligarchy of the south was bound to protect slavery, even the destruction of the Union if need be. The politcal goals of the two sections were different because of the existence of slavery
... We wanted represented government. The North wanted complete, unchecked control of that government, to benefit themselves at every one else's expense.
Bull. Clearly the south did NOT believe in a representative form of government. The south made it clear that it would rather remain a set of crown colonies than give up loving the practice that dares not speak it's name.
There were copperheads in the north, but I do not by this draw the conclusion that "the north" wished it was on the side of "the south."
Sherman's bodyguard in GA was an Alabama cavalry unit. By this I do not draw the conclusion that "the south" wished it was on the side of "the north."
In the end, there was only one states' right that the south was interested in. The right to whip another man, to kill him, to subjugate him absolutely. To make it illegal for him to read, to vote, to have a right to his family.
Using the polemicist J.Davis as a source is stupefying. A little like asking Lenin or Stalin how he felt about forced labor camps. Actually a lot like it.
Last edited by Baggage Handler #2; 06-30-2008 at 11:44 PM.
Reason: unsplit an infinitive
The North wanted complete, unchecked control of that government, to benefit themselves at every one else's expense.
Absolutely.
And if there was one thing the North could not stand more than a rival faction in government...
...was a rival nation on its borders.
That's the reason for the war.
"...If the two sections can no longer live together, they can no longer live apart in quiet till it is determined which is master. No two civilizations ever did, or can, come into contact as the North and South threaten to do, without a trial of strength, in which the weaker goes to the wall...
...We must remain masters of the occasion, and the dominant Power on this continent..."
New York Times, 9 April 1861
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Not A War Against The South
(New York Times, May 10, 1861)
"It is a great mistake to suppose that the war, which is now being initiated, is a war "against the South," or against Southern institutions. It is true that geographically the North occupies one side of the controversy and the South the other, but this is simply owing to the fact that the treason which renders the war inevitable, originated and prevails only at the South, while loyalty to the Union is the universal sentiment of the Northern people. On the part of the South the war was begun, and is being prosecuted, for the overthrow of the Government, to pull down and destroy this free Republic, that for more than three-quarters of a century has been the astonishment and the admiration of the world. There never was a war so utterly causeless forced upon a peaceful people. No right of any citizen has been invaded, no privileges withheld or interfered with. No right of any State has been invaded, no attribute of State Sovereignty interfered with. There is no pretence on the part of the seceding States that the rights of the citizen or the security of the State will be enhanced by successful revolution..."
I got more,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Bull. Clearly the south did NOT believe in a representative form of government. The south made it clear that it would rather remain a set of crown colonies than give up loving the practice that dares not speak it's name.
There were copperheads in the north, but I do not by this draw the conclusion that "the north" wished it was on the side of "the south."
Sherman's bodyguard in GA was an Alabama cavalry unit. By this I do not draw the conclusion that "the south" wished it was on the side of "the north."
In the end, there was only one states' right that the south was interested in. The right to whip another man, to kill him, to absolutely subjugate him. To make it illegal for him to read, to vote, to have a right to his family.
Using the polemicist J.Davis as a source is stupefying. A little like asking Lenin or Stalin how he felt about forced labor camps. Actually a lot like it.
The Federal government should really be proud of the attitude you guys have about the South, today....
It really should.
It not only has succeeded in denying the antebellum South the right to have an equal voice in the original 'united states' general government, by allowing a sectional interest to exclude from the territories the right to
representation which will affect the numbers in this hellish contest of VOTES that we call a free country... (free to the one who can get the most votes, I note!)
It not only managed to destroy that newly-formed country - who took its original government and meekly exited stage right, to continue what it saw as its original country.
It not only managed to convince the Gullible in charge of the North that they had been 'attacked' in South Carolina, and so hundreds of thousands of Northern boys should die because of this INSULT, in which NO ONE was killed... and then invading them to PRESERVE 'something' (God only knows what that was - geographical boundaries, maybe)...
It not only has managed to eliminate from absolutely all study the OTHER, far MORE IMPORTANT facts behind SLAVERY as a reason for even being mentioned, at all, in the Declarations of Secession... and has instead designated Southern Racism as the alpha and omega of the Slave Trade, which really didn't involve any NORTHERN help, if we don't ever mention it... because the South just enjoys beating on black people so much...
It not only has taken the symbols of that era, and castigated them as racial symbols, noting ONLY the use by the White Supremists of these symbols - and completely denying that there was ever ANY OTHER REASON for any one of these flags but SOUTHERN WHITE RACISM...
It has not only completely blinded you to its own Left WIng party blindness and propaganda, which changed this country's government overnight, and got smack clean away with it, while NONE OF YOU NOTICED it was even being done... and has made you a literal
laughingstock to any other country in the world who knows ANYTHING AT ALL about our history...
But it never says a word about it, nor even has to...
You are that bought and paid for...
So revel in that illogic, and state socialism that you have been injected with...
Nothing I have ever said, at all, has been as jaded and one-sided and off-base as the Yankee Myth of the Southern Secessionist.
Not one of us would even own a slave to this day, nor see another man enslaved... even though the Constitution that freed them was amended illegally - and unconstitutionally - to get the job done... (said job being that of never having to pay reparations from the common treasury for constitutionally-recognize property that was being stolen by an act of purposely-provoked warfare by this same general government under this new sectional coup...).
And yet we explain again and again why the South had OTHER motives, and reasons, and SLAVERY is not the be-all and end-all of the SOUTHERN ARGUMENT....
But the Left Wing which became our Government, a one-party system which now has two halves, according to Gore Vidal - refuses to teach anything but the abolitionist trash which has been known to be blatantly wrong since its inception, and the days of its terrorism...
And you still spout that idiot rhetoric that they taught you since the fourth grade.
Not A War Against The South
(New York Times, May 10, 1861)
"It is a great mistake to suppose that the war, which is now being initiated, is a war "against the South," or against Southern institutions. It is true that geographically the North occupies one side of the controversy and the South the other, but this is simply owing to the fact that the treason which renders the war inevitable, originated and prevails only at the South, while loyalty to the Union is the universal sentiment of the Northern people. On the part of the South the war was begun, and is being prosecuted, for the overthrow of the Government, to pull down and destroy this free Republic, that for more than three-quarters of a century has been the astonishment and the admiration of the world. There never was a war so utterly causeless forced upon a peaceful people. No right of any citizen has been invaded, no privileges withheld or interfered with. No right of any State has been invaded, no attribute of State Sovereignty interfered with. There is no pretence on the part of the seceding States that the rights of the citizen or the security of the State will be enhanced by successful revolution..."
I got more,
Unionblue
Clearly a newspaper that did not get shut down!
No war would have been necessary had Lincoln confined his complaint with the Confederate government over Sumter to South Carolina. Only he didn't recognize either the South, the Confederacy, nor South Carolina! He didn't recognize that there had ever been another president save himself - because, according to his left wing crowd, THERE HAD NEVER BEEN ANOTHER PRESIDENT SAVE HIMSELF.
He was the father of a new nation. An empire, actually, by definition.
Note the LIE about US attacking Washington City!
This man should have been tried for sedition, except that in this case, the general government was the very SEAT of that sedition!
In that light, the Yankee stupidity and arrogance shines through...
And if there was one thing the North could not stand more than a rival faction in government...
...was a rival nation on its borders.
That's the reason for the war.
"...If the two sections can no longer live together, they can no longer live apart in quiet till it is determined which is master. No two civilizations ever did, or can, come into contact as the North and South threaten to do, without a trial of strength, in which the weaker goes to the wall...
...We must remain masters of the occasion, and the dominant Power on this continent..."
New York Times, 9 April 1861
Thank you, sir.
They are not just a collectivist political mob, but thanks to their sordid 'victory', they are now the general government, itself!
And not only that, they are now also thinking themselves to be the entire United States of America. There is no one else but them, and what they think...
The Federal government should really be proud of the attitude you guys have about the South, today....
And here is where you just don't get it, Beowulf. What we debate here and discuss with one another is about the CIVIL WAR that happened to take place almost a century and a half ago. Even then, this is not "you guys" or about present day attitudes about the South. The war is OVER. You want to pretend otherwise, but the fact remains, it's over and we are simply talking about a short, four year period in the entire history of the South, nothing more.
It really should.
It not only has succeeded in denying the antebellum South the right to have an equal voice in the original 'united states' general government, by allowing a sectional interest to exclude from the territories the right to
representation which will affect the numbers in this hellish contest of VOTES that we call a free country... (free to the one who can get the most votes, I note!)
Funny, when Senator Douglas promoted Popular Sovereignty, the idea that the people of a territory could vote themselves if they wanted to be a free or slave state, the South objected like crazy! Why in God's name would they object to the people voting for such? Because the MAJORITY of those people just might vote against the idea of becoming a Slave State. So much for States Rights.
It not only managed to destroy that newly-formed country - who took its original government and meekly exited stage right, to continue what it saw as its original country.
DiLorenzo? Conner? Lew Rockwell?
It not only managed to convince the Gullible in charge of the North that they had been 'attacked' in South Carolina, and so hundreds of thousands of Northern boys should die because of this INSULT, in which NO ONE was killed... and then invading them to PRESERVE 'something' (God only knows what that was - geographical boundaries, maybe)...
God only knows where you come up with this garbage. It certainly isn't from any history of the period.
It not only has managed to eliminate from absolutely all study the OTHER, far MORE IMPORTANT facts behind SLAVERY as a reason for even being mentioned, at all, in the Declarations of Secession... and has instead designated Southern Racism as the alpha and omega of the Slave Trade, which really didn't involve any NORTHERN help, if we don't ever mention it... because the South just enjoys beating on black people so much...
Beowulf, it may surprise you that many here have agreed with the idea that the North was in the business of being great carriers of slaves. Battalion has provided many a fine post on the subject and his sources and proof are solid. I disagree with the point-of-view he attempts to give with that information, but there can be no denial that slavery was a NATIONAL sin, as some put it.
But the historical fact remains that the South left the Union in order to protect slavery, which it felt was no longer secure in the Union. One only has to believe what the men wrote, in their articles of secession, in their newspapers and in their speeches before Congress and the nation.
It not only has taken the symbols of that era, and castigated them as racial symbols, noting ONLY the use by the White Supremists of these symbols - and completely denying that there was ever ANY OTHER REASON for any one of these flags but SOUTHERN WHITE RACISM...
I will assume here that you are talking about the Confederate Battle Flag. Again, you make a sweeping statement about a flag that was used on the battlefield by an army over a century and a half ago, and yet somehow mix it with political and social ills of this century at the expense of everything else in between.
It has not only completely blinded you to its own Left WIng party blindness and propaganda, which changed this country's government overnight, and got smack clean away with it, while NONE OF YOU NOTICED it was even being done... and has made you a literal
laughingstock to any other country in the world who knows ANYTHING AT ALL about our history...
We can't notice what isn't there or what we don't personally believe of your own political mantra. You keep making such sweeping statements concerning your own world-view and expect us to fall down and worship your wisdom. You have to prove it, not just mouth it.
But it never says a word about it, nor even has to...
You are that bought and paid for...
Please, direct me to the nearest federal paymaster so I can cash in on my anti-South rants here. I could use the gas money.
So revel in that illogic, and state socialism that you have been injected with...
State socialism? Not me, I'm scared of needles!
Nothing I have ever said, at all, has been as jaded and one-sided and off-base as the Yankee Myth of the Southern Secessionist.
That's because you have yet to crack a legitimate book of history or base any of your arguments in historical reality. There are others here who do not agree with my or others premises concerning the causes of the war or the impact of slavery in causing secession. But they tend to base their views on actual, historical events, unlike you.
Not one of us would even own a slave to this day, nor see another man enslaved... even though the Constitution that freed them was amended illegally - and unconstitutionally - to get the job done... (said job being that of never having to pay reparations from the common treasury for constitutionally-recognize property that was being stolen by an act of purposely-provoked warfare by this same general government under this new sectional coup...).
You continue to reject the historical record of when compensated emancipation was offered to the South, it was turned down flat by slaveholders. I know your upset by the experation date on the offer, but the fact of the matter is, it was offered and was rejected.
As for the idea that the Constitution was amended illegaly, certainly you have an explanation for that, right?
And yet we explain again and again why the South had OTHER motives, and reasons, and SLAVERY is not the be-all and end-all of the SOUTHERN ARGUMENT....
Again, Beowulf, if one seriously does some honest research, one is going to find the issue of slavery at the bottom of every motive and reason of the SOUTHERN ARGUMENT. One only has to listen to the South and its leadership of the time to find this glaring fact out for themselves.
But the Left Wing which became our Government, a one-party system which now has two halves, according to Gore Vidal - refuses to teach anything but the abolitionist trash which has been known to be blatantly wrong since its inception, and the days of its terrorism...
(Insert Big, DOUBLE Yawn here.)
And you still spout that idiot rhetoric that they taught you since the fourth grade.
Anyone else remember that idiot rhetoric about the Civil War they taught us in fourth grade? I'm drawing a blank here. As a matter of fact, my high school history class covered the Civil War in just about two paragraphs. Do they do it any different in the South?
Un-be-freak-ing-leave-able!
As this entire post is.
Beowulf
Time out for the federal paymaster and all that money I get for trashing the South of today.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
And clearly you want to keep ignoring the information the proves that Lincoln did not supress newspapers to the point you claim he did. But why let facts screw up a prefectly good myth?
No war would have been necessary had Lincoln confined his complaint with the Confederate government over Sumter to South Carolina. Only he didn't recognize either the South, the Confederacy, nor South Carolina! He didn't recognize that there had ever been another president save himself - because, according to his left wing crowd, THERE HAD NEVER BEEN ANOTHER PRESIDENT SAVE HIMSELF.
Lincoln's left wing crowd? As for not recognizing another president, no, I can see Lincoln's and the rest of the US viewpoint on this. There was a man who had been appointed to lead the rebellion in progress, but not an elected president. The legal and recognized election that took place in 1860 had already determined that.
He was the father of a new nation. An empire, actually, by definition.
Note the LIE about US attacking Washington City!
Where in the editorial is this claim ever made? Do you actually read any post in its entirety? And "US?" attacking Washington City? You got a mouse and a time machine in your pocket?
This man should have been tried for sedition, except that in this case, the general government was the very SEAT of that sedition!
For expressing his opinion that there were those in the South conducting a rebellion? Strange, according to what I have read, there actually was a rebellion going on conducted by such men in the South.
In that light, the Yankee stupidity and arrogance shines through...
Sorry. I was just trying to show Battalion that if one waits long enough, the New York Times could have one kind of editorial one day, and have a completely different kind of editorial another day.
The Gullible Yankee North...
Those crazy editors...
Beowulf
Sigh.
And those gullible enough to believe their own press releases.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
They are not just a collectivist political mob, but thanks to their sordid 'victory', they are now the general government, itself!
And not only that, they are now also thinking themselves to be the entire United States of America. There is no one else but them, and what they think...
No South. No West. No anyone else, but THEM.
They know what is best for us all...
Just ask them!
Beowulf
We can't, Beowulf, their dead.
Remember, this is from an 1861 editorial about an event that took place over a century and half ago.
It's like trying to read tea leaves pressed into a rock from the Jurrasic period. A little to late to help any dinosaur who was curious about the future.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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