Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Well, lets see:
According to Dawna's post the papers "The New York World and The Journal of Commerce" were shut down early half of August.
According to Alphillbilly's post the closing was politically motivated and once the "presidential election" was over no further action taken.
So what presidential election took place in late summer of '61. Also, there is no indication of when these 2 papers re-opened, if they did at all.
Actually the papers were only closed a couple days. But what happened to the editor?
And the closing had nothing to do with the publishing of lists of states that were supposed to be against the war.
Excuse me. Am I correct in the contention that there was not an 1864 election and the arrests could Not be politically motivated? That Lincoln was Not capable of such actions? Especially in New York or Ohio? That nothing that happened before November would be considered election related? Is this the stand that you guys are taking? I really want to know why the president would be invoved in a civil crime. A crime apparently so heinous it required the suspension of the Constitution he was sworn to obey. A crime so vile the perpetrator spent a whopping 3 months in jail.
Just a point of fact, amongst the false claims the newspaper printed, claiming signing by the president were indeed false. The claims that the president was calling for a draft of 400,000 men was indeed a lie. It was actually 500,000 men. The claims the president was asking for fasting due to losses in the field was wrong. Lincoln had already covered those bases the year before. Instead of fasting he prefered feasting in celebration of the victory at Gettysburg.
Lincoln waged a hugely costly war in New York. In terms of human life it can be estimated as one of the highest costs of the war. When it comes to the financial cost it can only be guessed at the final total. In the cost of Civil Liberties destroyed, priceless.
But it is ok isn't it? Because Mr Lincoln did it. And while both lawyers and politicians are treated as the most vile creatures in all creation, somehow he is God. No matter what he did, the response is But.....
(Message edited by aphillbilly on January 28, 2005)
Partially right. From the book, Lincoln, by David H. Donald, chapter 18, It Was Not Best To Swap Horses, section III, page 501:
"...Lincoln on May 17, (1864) felt forced to draft an order for the conscription of 300,000 additional men. The order was never issued because on May 18 the New York World and the Journal of Commerce published a proclamation, purportedly originating in the White House, in which Lincoln announced that, "with a heavy heart, but an undiminished confidence in our cause," he was ordering an additional draft of 400,000 men. This depressing news caused a flurry of speculation on Wall Street, and the price of gold, as measured in greenbacks, rose 10 percent. That was the object of the authors of the bogus proclamation, Joseph Howard, an editor of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, and Francis A. Mallison, a reporter for that paper, who managed a fairly skillful imitation of Lincoln's style. Doubtless Howard, who had worked for the New York Times and the New York Tribune, heard rumors of an impending draft call, and he took advantage of inside information in the hope of making a fortune in the gold market.
The Lincoln administration came down heavily on the two newspapers. In an order drafted by Stanton, Lincoln directed the army to 'take possession by military force' of the premises of the two offending papers and ordered the arrest of their editors and proprietors. Shortly afterward authorities discovered that Howard and Mallison were responsible, and the two men were imprisoned in Ft. Lafayette.
Though the editors and owners of the papers were promptly released and the World and the Journal of Commerce resumed publication after two days, the episode further illustrated the determination with which Lincoln was prosecuting the war. Offered an opportunity to disavow responsibility for the order suppressing the newspapers by blaming subordinates, he refused to do so. He was already angry at the speculators and profiteers who were making money from the war, often by betting against the success of the government. Gold speculator--and Howard planned to be one--were a special object of his wrath. Banging his clenched fist on the table for emphasis, he told Governor Curtin: 'I wish every one of them had his devilish head shot off!"
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
We've gone to 6 newspapers demonstrably ordered closed in August, '61 (9 if you count daily and weekly as separate papers)from 300. And from a closing in '61 as being preparation for the election in '64. As Charles mentioned, they were not closed for the duration.
There are none so blind....
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Neil,
I think you miss a lot of the point here. Lincoln had already waged war on New York the year before. This was not a random chosing of villians. In fact, the battle for New York was the longest battle of the war and the most intense urban combat. His closing of the newspapers, even if it was for one hour, sends a chilling message to the people. Much the way Butler's rape permission order did in New Orleans. But Lincoln advocated that too didn't he.
There is no need to attack the press, shut down newspapers, suspend the constitution, all for the semi false reportings of two men. Which by the way, were doing nothing more than Lincoln's, Chase's and Stanton's cronies were doing.
Ole, I respectfully suggest you actually read all the posts before your proverbs are presented. I am talking about in 64, not 61, the shutting down of New York newspapers and shutting off the distribution of those and other papers to other states. Suspending the AP etc. If you have evidence to the contrary, why not present as Neil has done?
YMOS
tommy
(Message edited by aphillbilly on January 28, 2005)
Good to see you back and on-line once again. I hope you are feeling well and are holding back the doctors of pain. I can see by your posts you are back to your lighting strikes and quick knife thrusts, in the verbal sense, of course.
How are you holding up?
Plus, are you going to admit your 500,000 figure was wrong or not? And, do you have any idea how many newspapers there were in the North (or the entire country for that matter) in 1861?
There are none so stubborn as those who are really stubborn.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I am afraid not Neil. On both counts. My feeling well nor my admitting 500k was incorrect.
“ The January draft did not take place for on February 1, 1864, Lincoln issued a call for 500,000 men which was assumed to include the 300,000 from the October 17 call. March 14, 1864 brought an additional call for 200,000 men. “
“A Columbia Count)' resident in Orangeville writing to a friend in the army remarked that with the draft taking place, people were leaving the area, perhaps going to Canada: "I am thinking that if we were to go there we would feel quite at home, among so many of our Pennsylvanians." The Lincoln administration on July 5, 1864, requested Pennsylvania to supply 12.000 militia to serve for one hundred days, unless discharged earlier, in Washington and vicinity. To help meet this demand, Columbia County’’s quota was 203 men. Shortly thereafter, on July 18, 1864, Washington issued its second draft call for the year, requesting 500.000 men. This prompted the Columbia Democrat to complain that "Five hundred thousand poor men are to be torn and dragged from their families in the beginning of winter, leaving them to freeze and starve. .”
George A. Turner, President of the Columbia County Historical and Genealogical Society and member of the Bloomsburg Town Council, is a former Professor of History at Bloomsburg University and holds the rank of Professor Emeritus. Professor Turner’’s ““Civil War Dissent in Columbia Country, PA appeared in Carver, a Bloomsburg University interdisciplinary journal, in the Spring 1991 issue, Volume 9, pages 43-59.
It is interesting to note that in reading the letters of the time how the clause that allowed a person to avoid service by paying $300 was stricken from the law. But not because it was the right thing to do nor because it was uconstitutional. They did it and timed it so that it would help ensure Republican votes.
(Message edited by aphillbilly on January 28, 2005)
As for the 500,000 being right, I have the following from the site you give.
Oct. 17, 1863 - 300,000 men called for.
Feb. 01, 1864 - 500,000 men called for.
Mar. 14, 1864 - 200,000 men called for.
Jul. 18, 1864 - 500,000 men called for.
My own statement above says:
May 17, 1864 - 300,000 men called for. Do we have our dates correct? Let me do some web site checks on the size and dates of the drafts and I'll get back to you. What I was saying, and I am sure you understand, is that the shut-down of the papers in question did not involve the number of 400,000 or 500,000, but 300,000. In my opinion, the 500,000 number you quote for the incident is wrong. The 400,000 number used by the reporters in question was wrong.
But let me check and make sure to my own satisfaction and if I am wrong, I'll take the hit.
In the meantime, help me out. Butler's rape permission order? You have the figures on how many women in New Orleans were raped after Butler issued his order?
And who is the fellow you are describing in your above post that spent 3 months in jail? And the 'war' you say Lincoln waged against New York the year before? Could you be more specific?
And do you have any other information or sources beyond the newspapers we have mentioned in the above so we could see if we could kick the number up to the supposed 300 figure?
Back soon,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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