Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Because you have a silly, irrational need for history to be about vindicating something rather than for it to be simply about the truth of what happened.
Don't like the truth? Move.
You need some kind of kaopektate of the brain. Not only is your history poor, but your writing is atrocious. I'm not talking about spelling. I'm talking about the fact that you seem to think eloquent means as much baloney as you can pour into a sentence. Remember. Less is more.
Regards,
Cash
Uh, this is not History; it is Sociology. Right now, I am studying Yankee North America, and its collective one-sidedness... I am noting a generalized similarity here.
Fascinating...
We tried to leave, once before. You didn't like the way you appeared to others, without us!
You want to talk about Spelling? I note many curious forms of various words in all of your replies. I know we at one time tried to change our spellings to secede from the King's English (the waste of time that is the difference between color and colour)...
... but some of these variations I see are bound to give people the idea that you don't know any better!
I mean, if you can't get the building blocks right, how can your buildings made from them pass code?
You are asking me to accept your belief in your history as an absolute value, unchangeable and reverend. As the TRUTH. You, of all people, should know that History is never the absolute truth! It's like watching a movie that is 'based on a true story'... And it is never any more accurate than that, so come down off your Righteous Steed! My assessments of the Southron have as much validity as yours, and maybe more so, because I am one, myself. (Not a Scalawag, mind! I cannot speak for that particular sub-culture).
The victors write most of it! And what Tecumseh Sherman wrote about himself should give you the psychosis from which he was suffering...
No, I am going to need more than "because thus-and-so said so" before I believe in your 'truths' as absolute.
And if I ever did begin to spout your version of history, after some epiphany, or other, or a conversion, I certainly will leave out every bit of the hostility towards the Southerners in question, and towards anyone who still holds their views!
It is base, and vulgar. It is also based upon the yankee propaganda from the newspapers of the period which were NOT shut down.
And I have always enjoyed Oscar Wilde's quote concerning
patriotism; he said it was the virtue of the vicious...
In the South, we fly at least two flags (neither of them has any eagles on them...) and whenever I see them in flight, I think about Mr. Wilde's statement, and I try to rise above that...
By the way, when he came to America, the one person he wanted to meet, more than any other, was Jefferson Davis. While Davis was not impressed with him, at the meeting he granted the man, Varina was quite taken by him!
"Uh, this is not History. It's Sociology. Right now, I am studying Yankee North America, and its collective one-sidedness... I am noting a generalized similarity here.
Fascinating..."
And the above is fascinating only in the depth of deliberate missunderstanding it portrays.
Again, you are NOT studying "Yankee North America" you are debating with individuals who have their own views and ideas concerning the American Civil War. You are not a lone Confederate David facing some sort of regional Union Goliath. I do wish you would not continue to build yourself up in your mind as such, because it does little but clutter up the thread here.
Quote:
"We tried to leave, once before."
"We" that is to say "you" and "I" did NOT try to leave anything, unless you claim to have perfected time travel. "You" and "I" can only observe those events we debate from a distance using (or as some, misusing) that tool we call "history."
And please return this thread to its primary topic;
Slavery, THE Cause?
It would be appreciated if not down right surprising.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
You know, when I look at it from your point of view, I get really cold. I don't like the way North America looks, from your point of view. I don't care for the way that great men and women, tricked by some bogus wording, or caught up in a 'trap' not of their own doing... and having to defend themselves like the 300 at Sparta...
More chest thumping... and more indication you know next to nothing about actual history...
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
Durin my study of the war, I started to notice some interestin things. I noticed that every state or locale had some different view of, what I call, war reasoning.
Some were whig, independant, dems, pubs and I even noticed newspapers changing it's political views in mid-war. I found that very interesting.
Then I found a book..In the Presence of Mine Enemies by Edward Ayers. Wonderful book...and it seemed to solidify my thoughts.
With that, could you narrow the decision to go war and it's reasonings to the US and CS governments? To each state? To it's people?
So if you were to ask, or example, South Carolina if slavery was the reason to go to war and then asked Virginia in 1861, I think you would get 2 different answers.
However, when the west was expanded with the victory of the war with Mexico, the arguement over wether these states would be free or slave was, imho, was the match that lit the fire. The inferno began with Fort Sumpter.
I do think slavery was made a front page issue by Lincoln (emancipation), and he needed to do it to preserve the Union.
I think this was more a political & tactical move than out of "what was right" but he done it nonetheless.
__________________ "Persons can talk about the horrors of war but to witness them is a different matter altogether."
--Lt. Col. John Gibson, 14th VA Calvary, battle at Philippi, June 3, 1861
I do think slavery was made a front page issue by Lincoln (emancipation), and he needed to do it to preserve the Union.
I think this was more a political & tactical move than out of "what was right" but he done it nonetheless.
I don't dismiss it as merely political or tactical. It seems a logical progression that after such human cost, this opportunity to pursue the killing of this virus could not be lost. How could this war possibly not end up being about slavery?
I don't dismiss it as merely political or tactical. It seems a logical progression that after such human cost, this opportunity to pursue the killing of this virus could not be lost. How could this war possibly not end up being about slavery?
Cedarstripper
You have a great thought here. Please finish it, now, to its logical conclusion, and see how it reads...
What, pray, was the North's fascination with the institution of Slavery?
Aside from the fact that Slavery built the 13 colonial British colonies, at the demand of King George III (and against Colonial Virginia's wishes) at a time when Slavery was still building the British empire, as well... (And every great civilization history has ever known!).
And aside from the fact that the North wanted extensions placed upon the trade, until they could get their own manufacturing and production knowledge (through their spies in Britain) and start their empire in the North... and
begin to play the Collectivist game that the Blue States are still noted for, to this very election...
Aside from the fact that Lincoln idolized Henry Clay, and was willing to allow Slavery "where it exists" and confine it to a permanent minority vote, in government, so he could populate the West with the Republican Second Party people, and thus control all the future taxation through a forced political majority...
Aside from the fact that Slavery most likely went on well after the Civil War, in the North, (probably because "good help was so hard to find"!) during the lifetimes of all the slaves held at that moment, in 25 year increments, and
so Northerners wouldn't lose their investments! A thing called G-r-a-d-u-a-l E-m-a-n-c-i-p-a-t-i-o-n.
Aside from the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation is now seen as noble, and not some inflammatory insurrectionist doctrine designed to get Southern civilians killed, and how the present general government regretted the hanging of John Brown, and eulogizes him through song.
Aside from the fact that some 20,000 yanks walked off the job when it became a "XXXXXX XXXXXX War!"
Aside from the fact that Secession as a reason was simply not noble enough to justify all that blood, (of course, a war lasting no more than a couple months would have been just fine under the label of SECESSION, because then it could look like the 'uprising' that the North fantasized it was, and not the deliberate forming of a new nation!)
And we certainly don't want to mention MONEY in any of this, or TAXES, because THE SECOND PARTY might be spotted, out there, moving about, haunting the battlefields of the dead!
Aside from the fact that no Northern proponent ever challenges the idea that they, the North, were the Golden Triangle Slave Traders of the Middle Passage and brought forth on this continent a new race, conceived in Slavery, and dedicated to the proposition that upon these people shall be placed any burden we choose to place!
No, I can see how they HAVE to have Slavery as a Reason for Being...
Now, today, the North 'officially' invaded and destroyed the South over the fine print they say they found in the Constitution and the private writings of the 'founding fathers'... none of whom advocated armed invasion (not even their Liberals, like Hamilton!) to COERCE STATES!
And the South was willing to die ONLY so that 6% of its people had the right to possess other human beings from the now-banned Northern Enterprise, and continue a form of a caste-system that was the general consensus of the entire majority of North America, at that point.
In casting about for excuses, I can only say that SLAVERY was about ALL the North had going for it! (If you don't ask too many questions in History Class).
And if you reason that Jefferson Davis wanted to enact Compensated Emancipation, and free not only THAT PRESENT GENERATION, but all others thereafter...
Then, the North loses what little excuse it actually had.
Durin my study of the war, I started to notice some interestin things. I noticed that every state or locale had some different view of, what I call, war reasoning.
Some were whig, independant, dems, pubs and I even noticed newspapers changing it's political views in mid-war. I found that very interesting.
Then I found a book..In the Presence of Mine Enemies by Edward Ayers. Wonderful book...and it seemed to solidify my thoughts.
With that, could you narrow the decision to go war and it's reasonings to the US and CS governments? To each state? To it's people?
So if you were to ask, or example, South Carolina if slavery was the reason to go to war and then asked Virginia in 1861, I think you would get 2 different answers.
However, when the west was expanded with the victory of the war with Mexico, the arguement over wether these states would be free or slave was, imho, was the match that lit the fire. The inferno began with Fort Sumpter.
I do think slavery was made a front page issue by Lincoln (emancipation), and he needed to do it to preserve the Union.
I think this was more a political & tactical move than out of "what was right" but he done it nonetheless.
Well, I did mention the Anglo Saxon /Celtic thing, but it
didn't do well enough at the box office to go into syndication!
Virginia seceded BECAUSE of Fort Sumter, and the demand for 2300 troops to fulfill a 75,000 man mob from the North. As the governor said, in a letter to Lincoln, "You have chosen to inaugurate Civil War!"
Virginia went to war at Manassas, Virginia, when a hostile armed party crossed over into the state, and aimed guns at the standing militiae, and began firing upon them...
I'd say that was a pretty good reason for a war!
Again, SLAVE and FREE states, as used in these instances, are spin-doctored buzz phrases for LIBERAL and CONSERVATIVE voting coalitions in Congress, to be able to control the government.
'Wherein one part may be taxed at the benefit of the residue!"
What, pray, was the North's fascination with the institution of Slavery?
Aside from the fact ......yada, yada, yada......
I'm afraid I don't have the time nor the inclination this afternoon to answer your long list of imagined facts.
You continue to remind me of the creationist who, having just read a book by Kent Hovind, heads off to the Museum of Natural History to set things straight with his newly learned set of "facts."
Beep. Beep. Earth to Beowulf: Come back! But please, leave the League of the South baggage behind.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
And the above is fascinating only in the depth of deliberate missunderstanding it portrays.
Again, you are NOT studying "Yankee North America" you are debating with individuals who have their own views and ideas concerning the American Civil War. You are not a lone Confederate David facing some sort of regional Union Goliath. I do wish you would not continue to build yourself up in your mind as such, because it does little but clutter up the thread here.
"We" that is to say "you" and "I" did NOT try to leave anything, unless you claim to have perfected time travel. "You" and "I" can only observe those events we debate from a distance using (or as some, misusing) that tool we call "history."
And please return this thread to its primary topic;
Slavery, THE Cause?
It would be appreciated if not down right surprising.
Unionblue
Very well. Back to slavery. Done.
But one thing, by way of reply... The people you are talking about were my people, living right here, and
if this were then, guess where I would be? And why?
I own some old plantation land from my grandfather.
I am in a county where my people registered and went
to battle in the 58th Virginia Co. K. They saw action in just about every Eastern theatre you can imagine. I don't own slaves.
Those, of my people, who were here in the 1860's didn't, either. But
as state government was more important than the
general government, our leader Lee refused to join this coup that had taken Washington City in what was clearly an accidental election.
If we joined Lincoln, we were in danger of turning against our own families and people, all for some new political party which we were not even a party to, here in what would become Red State Virginia...
So, yes, it is ME and possibly, YOU, if any of your people did THAT, then...
We were fighting for our land and our property, which 'your people' (either by blood, or figuratively speaking)
showed they did not appreciate civilians, nor Southern anything, during their invasions of us; we were the opposing political party...
And had not Jubal Early taken Spartan odds of 8,000 against 22,000 of Hunter's yankees, and driven them out of here, forever, the war might have been over in 1864, RIGHT HERE.
And if that were so, it may well be that I would not be here now, conversing with you, at all...
And Virginia might have been Atlanta, and all this beautiful countryside swallowed up in some megalopolis clear to DC...
SO, we thank the Confederate army, to this moment, for
their work in preserving our land, and our lives, and our civilian lives (whom whence I came), and our food supplies, and ability to survive, and for which Sheridan wanted to desolate for us...and for which Sherman said, something like, "To the Secessionist, Death is Mercy". I am ever grateful that this mob was thwarted in their efforts to destroy me.
And that is all I really have to say on the subject.
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