Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Unionblue writes
"Greg, your statement that the federal government of the time was too large, makes for a rather poor conspiracy theory when one reviews historical fact. 16,000 troops, a handful of federal marshals, a part-time attorney general and the post office as the only direct federal contact with most citizens of the period, begs the description of an overly large federal government."
I haven't took the labors to do a percentile comparison but I think the entire resources of the 1800s era federal government were similar to today's when population was taken into account. I will get back to you on this one by the weekend!
I don't think that the 1800s Fed was on the same level as our current too large and invasive Federal Government. We suffer the FBI, NSA, HOMELAND "SECURITY", Special, forces, (as a combat vet I admire our troops, its the leaders that I question) black ops CIA...etc. Too many taxpayer supported beau's, I feel it lowers the standard of living for us, as well as the rest of the world. So, I will agree that it wasnt overly large compared to todays goverment, but by the mid 1800s in my opinion, it was too large, and had already began using its power for unhealthy goals.
Greg, as for the idea that the propaganda machine of the 1860s north 'worked' I again direct you to the newspaper articles of the time that stated 'let the erring sisters go' and take their slaves with them. That only AFTER the firing on Ft. Sumter did the citizens of the North take exception to the idea of the States leaving. And please consider the newspaper articles in the South that stoked the fires of rebellion to a white hot heat, in which no compromise could have taken place, in which articles threatened the men of the South with Republican's forcing mixed marriages and other flights of fancy on the population. Now there was a propaganda coup! " Greg, as for the idea that the propaganda machine of the 1860s north 'worked' I again direct you to the newspaper articles of the time that stated 'let the erring sisters go' and take their slaves with them.
Greg, I echo your sentiment. In just over two years on this site I have garnered quite a bit of good knowledge and am firmly convinced I know more now than after two 400 level Civil War history classes and several 300 level 19th Century American HIstory classes. THe conversations here have helped me realize the knowledge of scores of books on the subject. Though I still prefere the men to the politics.
I applaud the demand for sources, civil discourse and honest opinion that is exchanged here.
The biggest appreciation really does have to go to Mike and Ami for keeping this site operational... a daunting task. I encourage all to drop a few dollars in an envelope or hit a feew keys for a paypal transaction to help keep this site going. I shall.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Please take your time and I will do the same. I'm nursing some broken ribs this week and a friend has lent me her ****** so that I can at least do a little work from home, and stay connected to the outside world. If I prop myself up in the right position, which seems to take forever, and I don't sneeze, laugh, or cough, I can type for periods at a time. But digging out my notes and checking my references is another story...I will get there :-)
Examples of newspapers that were shut down during the Lincoln administration are The New York World and The Journal of Commerce:
Order from President Lincoln to General John A. Dix, May 18, 1864:
"You will take possession by military force, of the printing establishments of the New York World and Journal of Commerce... and prohibit any further publication thereof... you are therefore commanded forthwith to arrest and imprison in any fort or military prison in your command, the editors, proprietors and publishers of the aforesaid newspapers... and you will hold the persons so arrested in close custody until they can be brought to trial before a military commission."
Here are additional sources which indicate that over 300 newspapers were shut down:
James G. Randall documented Lincoln's assault on the Constitution in "Constitutional Problems Under Lincoln." Lincoln unconstitutionally suspended the writ of habeas corpus and had the military arrest tens of thousands of Northern political opponents, including dozens of newspaper editors and owners. Some 300 newspapers were shut down and all telegraph communication was censored. Northern elections were rigged; Democratic voters were intimidated by federal soldiers; hundreds of New York City draft protesters were gunned down by federal troops; West Virginia was unconstitutionally carved out of Virginia; and the most outspoken member of the Democratic Party opposition, Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio, was deported. Duly elected members of the Maryland legislature were imprisoned, as was the mayor of Baltimore and Congressman Henry May. The border states were systematically disarmed in violation of the Second Amendment and private property was confiscated. Lincoln's apologists say he had "to destroy the Constitution in order to save it."
Again, from "Freedom Under Lincoln" by Dean Sprague: Not only would Lincoln not receive Confederate commissioners, he refused, for three crucial months, to call Congress. Alone, he illegally raised money, illegally raised troops, and started the war. To crush Northern opposition, he suspended the writ of habeas corpus for the duration of the war and rounded up some 20,000 political prisoners. (Mussolini arrested some 12,000 but convicted only 1,624.) When the chief justice of the Supreme Court declared the suspension blatantly unconstitutional and ordered the prisoners released, Lincoln ordered his arrest. This American Caesar shut down over 300 newspapers, arrested editors, and smashed presses. He broke up state legislatures; arrested Democratic candidates who urged an armistice; and used the military to elect Republicans (including himself, in 1864, by a margin of around 38,000 popular votes). He illegally created a "state" in West Virginia and imported a large army of foreign mercenaries. B.H. Liddell Hart traces the origin of modern total war to Lincoln’s decision to direct war against the civilian population. Sherman acknowledged that, by the rules of war taught at West Point, he was guilty of war crimes punishable by death. But who was to enforce those rules?
From "Emancipating the Slaves, Enslaving Free Men by" by Jeffrey Rogers Hummel: The wartime Lincoln had no qualms about trampling on the nation's fundamental laws when it served his purposes. In response to draft resistance, Lincoln extended the suspension of habeas corpus throughout the North in 1862, subjecting citizens to arbitrary arrest. By the war's end, the Lincoln Administration had imprisoned at least 14,000 civilians and shut down over 300 newspapers. Lincoln even wrote standing orders for Chief Justice Taney's arrest, though he never had them delivered.
Neil, I could be missing the 'bigger picture,' but when trying to find a balance between security and civil liberties, where does interfering with freedom of speech fit in?
dawna,
You have all these quotes but only 2 newspapers named. What are some of the others. How long were they shut down.(An important point I think.) And better yet, there should still be some documents around with some kind of charges against the papers owners or editors.
The story of the closing of "The New York World and The Journal of Commerce:" has already been told on this site. Both papers had the same editor. It was shut down because the editor published a false report in the New York World about the drafting of soldiers, and signed Lincolns name. Is signing any Presidents name to a false report and publishing it to the country acceptable?? Personally I think Not.
Do any of your sources quoting the wrongful deed of shutting down the paper tell that story, or is is conveniently ignored.
What happened to the editor and how long were the 2 papers shut down.
I've heard that 300 papers were shut down too, but I've never seen a list of the 300, or even 10% of the number. It seems that with all the wonderful historians around, over the years, that someone, at sometime would have tried to put together this list for our enlightenment.
Actually the closing of these papers Dawna mentioned was politically motivated. Once the presidential election was over no further action was taken. The alleged offense the editor committed did not validate closing two papers completely.
What was the political motivation to close these two newspapers? And I remind you the two papers were closed for about two weeks, not completely, if you are referring to the fact that they were never opened again, but closed completely.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
August 16, 1861 - In the United States Circuit Court of New York the grand jury presented the Journal of Commerce, the Daily News, the Freemen's Journal, and the Brooklyn Eagle as aiders and abettors of treason, in terms following:
To the Circuit Court of the United States for the Southern District of New York:
The Grand Inquest of the United States of America for the Southern District of New York beg leave to present the following facts to the Court and ask its advice thereon:
There are certain newspapers within this district which are in the frequent practice of encouraging the rebels now in arms against the Federal Government by expressing sympathy and agreement with them, the duty of acceding to their demands, and dissatisfaction with the employment of force to overcome them. These papers are the New York daily and weekly Journal of Commerce, the daily and weekly News, the daily and weekly Day-Book, the Freeman's Journal, all published in the city of New York, and the daily and weekly Eagle, published in the city of Brooklyn. The first named of these has just published a list of newspapers in the free States opposed to what it calls "the present unholy war" - a war in the defence of our country and its institutions, and our most sacred rights, and carried on solely for the restoration of the authority of the Government.
The Grand Jury are aware that free Governments allow liberty of speech and of the press to their utmost limit, but there is nevertheless a limit. If a person in a fortress or an army were to preach to the soldiers submission to the enemy he would be treated as an offender. Would he be more culpable than the citizen who, in the midst of the most formidable conspiracy and rebellion, tells the conspirators and rebels that they are right, encourages them to persevere in resistance, and condemns the effort of loyal citizens to overcome and punish them as an "unholy war?" If the utterance of such language in the streets or through the press is not a crime, then there is a great defect in our laws, or they were not made for such an emergency.
The conduct of these disloyal presses is of course condemned and abhorred by all loyal men; but the Grand Jury will be glad to learn from the Court that it is also subject to indictment and condign punishment.
All which is respectfully presented.
CHARLES GOULD, Foreman.
New York, August 16, 1861.
[Signed by all the Grand Jurors.]
ORDER OF THE POSTMASTER GENERAL
Post Office Department, August 22, 1861.
SIR: The Postmaster General directs that from and after your receipt of this letter none of the newspapers published in New York city which were lately presented by the grand jury as dangerous, from their disloyalty, shall be fowarded in the mails.
I am, respectfully, your obedient servant,
T. B. TROTT, Chief Clerk.
To the Postmaster, New York City.
SEIZURES OF NEWSPAPERS
Philadelphia, August 22 - On the arrival of the New York train this morning Marshal Millward, and his officers, examined all the bundles of papers and seized every copy of the New York Daily News. The sale of this paper is totally suppressed in this city. Marshal Millward also seized all the bundles of the Daily News at the Express offices of the West and South, including over one thousand copies for Louisville, and nearly five hundred copies for Baltimore, Washington, Alexandria, and Annapolis. The Marshal also took possession of the office of the Christian Observer in consequence of a late violent article on the "unholy war."
Consider the well earned donation sent... well it will be sent on payday a week from this Friday. I sound like wimpy the hamburger eater in the popeye comic....give me a hamburger today and I'll gladly pay you next Wednesday...or something like that.
Posted by Shane Christien; "Though I still prefer the men to the politics."
I feel that the men on either side were fighting for their country and their God, all of them were patriots for their cause and good soliders.
I like the politics and the strategy of war, but feel guilty enjoying such small pleasures when the real cost (of war) is known to me.
Thank you for your well researched posts above to include your Suppression of Newspapers by Edward McPherson. May I ask from what source you got your information from Edward McPherson? I have searched for his books on American History on the civil war period but had been informed they were all long out of print. If you have a web site or book, I would be eager to view or locate one.
Greg, you state in your above post, January 27, 2005 - 07:41 am: "Doesn't this statement sorta quantify my claim?" No, it does not, not when you consider I was originally answering your post of Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 12:43 pm in which you state 'The propaganda ruse of the 1800s Federal government worked, convincing northerners and sadly some southerners of the morality of the war cause.'
I submit to you that newspapers of the North were not directed by the 1800's Federal government to the degree which you envision. I tried to further explain that some newspapers of the North were even calling for the seceding Southern States to be allowed to depart in peace. Does this come across as government propaganda in some way? Or did I missread your post when you stated you thought this was a Federal government effort?
As for your idea that the Federal government was too large by the middle 1800s, I cannot agree. In fact, I am willing to make the same observation that Daniel Farber made in the book Lincoln's Constitution, where he states it was the very weakness of the Federal government that convinced the leaders of secession to leave the Union.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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