Slavery; THE Cause?

[unionblue]

Tommy,

It is true that liberty is precious, but is it so precious it must be rationed?

Funny how that phrase, "All men are created equal" keeps coming back, again and again, debate after debate, interpretation after interpretation.

Some even state that even then it was recognized that all men are created equal, at birth, and then various factors like, wealth, position, social status, education, where and when one is born or how one deals with adversity and trials, says that none of us grow up equal or that we are given equal opportunity. Do we grow up equal? In intelligence or opportunity?

Did Jefferson and those men of 1776 have a vision for something else, something unique? Or were they just a bunch of fat old white men looking out for their own property and position?

At times, Tommy, I wonder, but I do not doubt. At times, I grow weary, but I still hope. And I cannot shake myself of my belief that it was a bit more than that, even those men, in spite of being foolish, self-centered and bickering human beings, I think they may have caught a glimpse of something more.

But this is where I am blind, deaf and dumb, and where my belief system kicks in at full power. No rational research, no historical documents, just faith and a belief.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Neil,
There is nothing more. Never has been, Never will be. Sorry. But by all means, keep the faith.

[unionblue]

Tommy,

Faith is the belief in those things not heard or seen? Know the biblical quote off-hand?

Unionblue

Neil,
I do understand. I envy your faith. I truly do. I’m not just saying that. I just do not have it. I guess I’m too grounded in realism and cynicism. I actually wish I were otherwise but I have seen too many ugly things to ever see beauty untainted. I cannot appreciate the beauty of the results when I see the ends justify the means route we’ve taken to get there. The earth has soaked up too much blood and misery for money and power, jealousy and resentment and from the “the better angels of our nature. “

[thea_447]

Hi Neil,

(This Reb rises slowly...)

Per your paragraphs 2,3,and 4 of your post of Oct. 22, 3:53 a.m.:
I unequivocally do not agree with anything you stated. Paragraph 2: The "overwhelming" as you put it, was being done by the North because they refused to even consider letting the South leave and YES, they did want her monies, etc. Paragraph 3: This issue was not exploded in the 1840s, but the reason the South chose to state slavery as their reason for leaving was they knew they couldn't leave on the premise of tariffs, no one would allow that. We have all seen the various tariffs levied in that time frame on this board countless times and I'm not going to repeat them again here and waste space. The industrialization of the North and her pursuit of mercantilism had to be bought and paid for, and who better to do that than the South.
Paragraph 4: We have discussed ad nauseum the fact that if the South's main goal was slavery she was better off IN the Union than out of it. There's no need for me to make this any plainer to you.
Paragraph 5: You speak of OUR expansion and in the same breath talk of "when the South returned to their chairs in government" as if because we are all involved at that point the sin is less. It would be very interesting to me to know how much expansion (by the North) was pursued while the South was still held to heel after the WBTS.

So, if you could show me, Neil, that the North didn't pursue any countries, territories, etc. while the South was busy trying to keep from starving to death right after the war, I will be glad to stop the finger-pointing. (I also love the way you say "if this period was a sin, it was a national, not a sectional sin. That's where you and I part ways, my friend, because I do consider it a sin and that's a mighty big "IF".)

As for what the South did to maintain law and order, I suggest you ask those people that Lincoln imprisoned in his quest to have his way what they thought about his methods before you start casting stones at my South. Lincoln's idea of the Constitution consisted of "If it's there and will benefit my plans, fine, if not, I'll "interpret" the law! Holy Moses! With that kind of convoluted thinking he pretty well did exactly what he wanted to do.

So much for this tete a tete, ol' pal. Hope it was as good for you as it was for me. If I smoked, I'd be lighting up right now!

See you on the field again real soon. Ya'll come back now, you hear? <grin>

[unionblue]

Thea,

And I would hold the match for you.

Enjoy your smoke and your views, but YOUR South is exactly my point.

And Thea, the South really left over tariffs but said slavery instead because tariffs wouldn't get them out? I'm leaving over A but use B as my excuse to the world because no one will let me leave if I say A?

Inhale deeply, my dear, and then pass it to me. I WANT whatever you are smoking!

Sincerely,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on October 27, 2004)

[unionblue]

Tommy,

Truly, I do understand you, old friend, and why you feel the way you do. It's your life, your experiences and your lessons learned along that path. I wish you as little pain and suffering as possible and know you have the courage to face any such in your own unique and personal way. You may not always have my agreement, but you always have my respect.

YMOS,
Unionblue

[unionblue]

Speech in U.S. Senate:

May 8, 1860

The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. Foot in the chair) If there be no further petitions or reports from committees, the hour for the consideration of the special order being near, the Chair will take it to be the sense of the Senate to proceed to the consideration of that order at the present time.

The following resolutions are now before the Senate as the special order of the day, on which the Senator from Mississippi (Mr. Jefferson Davis) is entitled to the floor;**

1. Resolved, That, in the adoption of the Federal Constitution, the States adopting the same acted severally as free and independent sovereignties, delegating a portion of their powers to be exercised by the Federal Government for the increased security of each against dangers, domestic as well as foreign; and that any intermeddling by anyone or more States, or by a combination of their citizens, with the domestic institutions of the others, on any pretext whatever, political, moral, or religious, with a a view to their disturbance or subversion, is in violation of the Constitution, insulting to the States so interfered with, endangers their domestic peace and tranquillity--objects for which the Constitution was formed--and, by necessary consequence, tends to weaken and destroy the Union itself.

2. Resolved, That negro slavery, as it exists in fifteen States of this Union, composes an important portion of their domestic institutions, inherited from their ancestors, and existing at the adoption of the Constitution, by which it is recognized as constituting an important element in the apportionment of powers among the States; and that no change of opinion or feeling on the part of the non-slaveholding States of the Union, in relation to this institution, can justify them, or their citizens, in open or covert attacks thereon, with a view to its overthrow; and that all such attacks are in manifest violation of the mutual and solemn pledge to protect and defend each other, given by the States respectively on entering into the constitutional compact which formed the Union, and are a manifest breach of faith, and a violation of the most solemn obligations.

3. Resolved, That the Union of these States rests on the equality of rights and privileges among its members, and that it is especially the duty of the Senate, which represents the States in their sovereign capacity, to resist all attempts to discriminate either in relation to persons or property in the Territories, which are the common possessions of the United States, so as to give advantages to the citizens of one State which are not equally assured to those of every other State.

4. Resolved, That neither Congress nor a Territorial Legislature, whether by direct legislation or legislation of an indirect and unfriendly character, possess power to annul or impair the constitutional right of any citizen of the United States to take his slave property into the common Territories, and there hold and enjoy the same while the territorial condition remains.

5. Resolved, That if experience should at any time prove that the judicial and executive authority do not possess means to insure adequate protection to constitutional rights in a Territory, and if the territorial government should fail or refuse to provide the necessary remedies for that purpose, it will be the duty of Congress to supply such deficiency.

6. Resolved, That the inhabitants of a Territory of the United States, when they rightfully form a constitution to be admitted as a State into the Union, may then, for the first time, like the people of a State when forming a new constitution, decide for themselves whether slavery, as a domestic institution, shall be maintained or prohibited within their jurisdiction; and, "they shall be received into the Union with or without slavery, as their constitution may prescribe at the time of their admission."

7. Resolved, That the provision of the Constitution for the rendition of fugitives from service or labor, without the adoption of which the Union could not have been formed, and that the laws of 1793 and 1850, which were enacted to secure its execution, and the main features of which, being similar, bear the impress of nearly seventy years of sanction by the highest judicial authority, should be honestly and faithfully observed and maintained by all who enjoy the benefits of our compact of union; and that all acts of individuals or of State Legislatures to defeat the purpose or nullify the requirements of that provision, and the laws made in pursuance of it, are hostile in character, subversive of the Constitution, and revolutionary in their effect...

(**For Jefferson Davis these resolutions affirmed fundamental rights protected by the Constitution. They were not a call to action. The Senate passed them in May 1860 with the specification, accepted by Jefferson Davis, that under number five, no conditions existed calling for action.)

Unionblue

[unionblue]

Message to Confederate Congress by Jefferson Davis,

Richmond, Virginia, January 12, 1863.

The public journals of the North have been received, containing a proclamation, dated on the 1st day of the present month, signed by the President of the United States, in which he orders and declares all slaves within ten of the States of the Confederacy to be free, except such as are found within certain districts now occupied in part by the armed forces of the enemy. We may well leave it to the instincts of that common humanity which a beneficent Creator has implanted in the breasts of our fellow-men of all countries to pass judgment on a measure by which several millions of human beings of an inferior race, peaceful and contented laborers in their sphere, are doomed to extermination, while a the same time they are encouraged to a general assassination of their masters by the insidious recommendation "to abstain from violence unless in necessary self-defense." Our own detesation of those who have attempted the most execrable measure recorded in the history of guilty man is tempered by profound contempt for the impotent rage which it discloses. So far as regards the action of this Government on such criminals as may attempt its execution, I confine myself to informing you that I shall, unless in your wisdom you deem some other course more expedient, deliver to the several State authorities all commissioned officers of the United States that may hereafter be captured by our forces in any of the States embraced in the proclamation, that they may be dealt with in accordance with the laws of those States providing for the punishment of criminals engaged in exciting servile insurrection. The enlisted soldiers I shall continue to treat as unwilling instruments in the commission of these crimes, and shall direct their discharge and return to their homes on the proper and usual parole.

In its political aspect this measure possesses great significance, and to it in this light I invite your attention. It affords to our whole people the complete and crowning proof of the true nature of the design of the party which elevated to power the present occupant of the Presidential chair at Washington and which sought to conceal its purpose by every variety of artful device and by the perfidious use of the most solemn and repeated pledges on every possible occasion....

The people of this Confederacy, then, cannot fail to receive this proclamation as the fullest vindication of their own sagacity in foreseeing the uses to which the dominant party in the United States intended from the beginning to apply their power, nor can they cease to remember with devout thankfulness that it is to their own vigilance in resisting the first stealthy progress of approaching despotism that they owe their escape from consequences now apparent to the most skeptical. This proclamation will have another salutary effect in calming the fears of those who have constantly evinced the apprehension that this war might end by some reconstruction of the old Union or some renewal of close political relations with the United States. These fears have never been shared by me, nor have I ever been able to perceive on what basis they could rest. But the proclamation affords the fullest of things which can lead to but one of three possible consequences---the extermination of the slaves, the exile of the whole white population from the Confederacy, or absolute and total separation of these States from the United States.

Unionblue

[unionblue]

To Major General W. H. T. Walker**

Richmond, Virginia, January 23, 1864

GENERAL:

I have received your letter with its inclosure, informing me of the propositions submitted to a meeting of the General officers on the 2d inst., and thank you for the information.

Deeming it to be injurious to the public service that such a subject should be mooted, or even known to be entertained by persons possessed of the confidence and respect of the people, I have concluded that the best policy under the circumstances will be to avoid all publicity, and the Secretary of War has therefore written to General Johnston requesting him to convey to those concerned my desire that it should be kept private.

If it be kept out of the public journals, its ill effect will be much lessened.

Very Respectfully and Truly Yours,
Jefferson Davis

(**Division commander in the Army of Tennessee; his letter referred to discussions in the army (To include Patrick Cleburne) about the possibility of using slaves as Confederate soldiers.)

Unionblue