Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Are you saying that "public opinion" IN THE SOUTH "was already turning against slavery"? If so, I can't agree. Slavery was declining in the border states because slaveholders there were gradually selling their slaves "down the river" (literally) to the slavehungry lower south and Texas. But this trend only exacerbated the demographic dilemma of the lower south. The demographics, in turn, contributed to the attitude in the lower south that slavery was a positive good that had to be preserved and rigorously enforced at all costs. I know of no evidence that public opinion there was turning against slavery.
Slave hungry? The Confederate States had an odd way of satisfying their slave hunger when they banned slave importations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektratig
Oh, those darned northern abolitionist cheapskates! If only they'd been willing to pay southerners to free their slaves, the whole problem would have been solved! The only problem with this theory is that the non-border south was firmly opposed to any program by which the federal government paid slaveowners to emancipate and/or colonize slaves.
Well, yes, of course, how silly of me. Those Northerners had already made their fortunes in transporting slaves from Africa and selling them to the Southerners. Now that slave importing was banned and their party was over it's silly of me to expect they should have helped with a solution to the problem they helped to create.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektratig
In short, there is no evidence of which I am aware that suggests that the middle and lower south -- the States that formed the CSA -- would have responded to a northern proposal along the lines you suggest with anything other than scorn and anger. If you have such evidence, I'd love to see it.
I've stated twice and I hope the third time is the charm, we are talking about timing. It's ludicrous to believe the South would still be practicing slavery today. Given their own time the South would have abolished slavery just as most other countries did. When? There is no provable answer to that question. But, as I said, had the North helped to find a solution it may have worked out better for the slaves.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
Continuing on . . . the suggestion that southern whites would have supported emancipation but for their concern that the former slaves would be "homeless and hungry" leaves me almost speechless.
Well, it would leave me speechless, too. Who the devil said such a thing? Or could it be that you are exaggerating something I said? This was my statement:
"The Southern people would not (willingly) accept millions of blacks wandering around homeless and hungry. Protecting white citizens from desperate blacks was one reason the KKK was formed."
But surely that statement isn't what you refer to when you claim there was a suggestion that Southern whites would have supported emancipation except for concern over former slaves being hungry and homeless. So, would you care to tell us where you came up with that "suggestion" that left you speechless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektratig
Reconstruction history and the Black Codes in particular demonstrate that, if blacks couldn't be enslaved, the South wanted them enserfed, not empowered or "self sufficient".
If you think Southern people were so monstrous, vindictive and hate filled as to want blacks homeless and desperate, roaming the countryside robbing, killing, stealing, then I don't know what I could possibly say that would make any difference to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektratig
Nor is it hard to understand why southerners dreaded black freedom, and southerners, at least before the War, were quite frank about it. With images of San Domingo, Denmark Vesey and Nat Turner dancing in their heads, they were terrified that, unless blacks were kept under tight control, they would rise up and wipe out their white tormentors in an orgy of bloodlust and rape:
Yet, before the war those terrified Southerners marched off to war leaving there most precious posessions, their wives and children and homes, in the care of those criminally insane slaves that had been tormented to the point of madness. Strange people, those Southerners.
During the war when there was no "tight control" none of those things you claim Southerners were terrified of happened to those horrid "white tormentors", now did it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektratig
"My third [proposition] is that abolition would be to the South one of the direst evils of which the mind can conceive. . .. The cotton States will, at that time [when abolition comes by decree of the North], have a large population of slaves, perhaps a larger population of slaves than of whites; but the population of whites will be respectable. The decree will excite an intense hatred between the whites on one side, and the slaves and the North on the other. Very soon a war between the whites and the blacks will spontaneously break out everywhere. It will be in every town, in every village, in every neighborhood, in every road. It will be a war of man with man -- a war of extermination. Quickly the North will intervene, and of course take sides with the party friendly towards them -- the blacks. The coalition will exterminate the white race, or expel them from the land, to wander as vagabonds over the face of the earth. That will be the fate of the cotton States, so far as the men are concerned; as for the women, they will call upon the mountains to fall upon them. That will be the end of the white race in the cotton States, and the black race will take possession of our goodly land, and convert it into another Jamaica, or St. Domingo."
(Secession Speech of Henry L. Benning, November 19, 1860, reprinted in Secession Debated, at pp. 119-20. See also, Charles Dew, Apostles of Disunion, at pp. 66-67, describing Benning's similar speech to the Virginia Convention on February 18, 1861 ["We will be completely exterminated"].)
I suggest that Mr. Benning had every right to his radical opinion and free speech, but that doesn't mean it reflects the sentiments of the South.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
He was sent to Virginia to speak as a commissioner from the Georgia secession convention. Do you not think that he represented Georgia and Joe Brown?
Cedarstripper
I think he was one of several secessionist radicals. His goal was to convince Virginia to secede.
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
I think he was one of several secessionist radicals. His goal was to convince Virginia to secede.
And you think he would do that by not representing the convention of his state? The point is he was chosen by the convention to represent Georgia. He spoke on their behalf as an agent of theirs.
And you think he would do that by not representing the convention of his state? The point is he was chosen by the convention to represent Georgia. He spoke on their behalf as an agent of theirs.
Cedarstripper
Do you have evidence that his speech was previewed and approved by the state?
I agree the state probably didn't much care how he got the job accomplished as long as he was sucessful. But, I sincerely doubt they believed Mr. Benning's propaganda and that's what it was. What's more than that, I doubt Mr. Benning believed it. All other evidence points toward Southern whites trusting in the loyalty and character of the blacks.
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
Do you have evidence that his speech was previewed and approved by the state?
The answer is "yes." It so happens that the speech from which I quoted was his speech in Georgia. Based upon that bravura performance, the Georgia Convention appointed him a Commissioner to the Virginia Convention. Not unexpectedly, he then gave a similar speech to the Virginia Convention (described and quoted from in Dew's Apostles of Disunion). The fair, indeed overwhelming, inference is that the Georgia Convention appointed him Commissioner to the Virginia Convention precisely to give that speech.
The answer is "yes." It so happens that the speech from which I quoted was his speech in Georgia. Based upon that bravura performance, the Georgia Convention appointed him a Commissioner to the Virginia Convention. Not unexpectedly, he then gave a similar speech to the Virginia Convention (described and quoted from in Dew's Apostles of Disunion). The fair, indeed overwhelming, inference is that the Georgia Convention appointed him Commissioner to the Virginia Convention precisely to give that speech.
Thank you. Would you care to answer my other questions that you have been ignoring?
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
Come on guys please.When have politicians spoken for the masses accurately?So all the protectionist rhetoric and factual voting supporting such issues doesn't speak for the populace of the North(I don't think they did)but this guy is proof of Southern sentiment.Never mind a plethora of letters to the contrary written by Southerners which didn't sell that opinion.Does George Bush and his speeches or actions reflect the views of most Americans?Of course not.Do most Americans want our country to spend billions of aid overseas to nations who hate us?No most Americans would rather that money be spent on Americans.Give me a break fellas.
__________________ "The sword is mighty, but principles laugh at swords. Overwhelming force may crush truth to earth but, crushed or not the truth is still the truth." Regards, Ashley
Ever hear that old saying by a politician? "I must find out where my people are going so I can get out in front and lead them."
Or something to that effect.
I have heard the argument put forth that the Southern people were so ignorant of the tariff question that the Southern leadership had to sell them on the idea that slavery was the real reason for all the fuss. Charles Adams advances this theory in his book, which I hold right up there with the likes of the Kennedy Brothers and Prof. DiLorenzo.
Towards the late 1850s and early part of 1860, most Southern politicians vying for public office often accused each other of being pro-abolition in order to whip up the vote. What I find amazing is that anyone can deny that the issue of slavery was at the center of political life in the United States, creating one crisis after another, and yet, somehow, it must be belittled, ignored, shoved to one side or outshouted by using other reasons for the greatest conflict this country ever experienced.
The paper trail is too great to ignore, if one is honest when viewing the history of the time.
In my own opinion.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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