Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
How do you figure this means a state may not abolish slavery within it's boundries?
That was not the statement made. It was claimed that a CSA state could make laws regarding slavery as it saw fit. For instance, a state could not make a law however prohibiting a slave owner from making temporary residence with his slaves in that state......IOW, a law regarding slavery. If free states from the West were to join the confederacy, they would necessarily have to open their borders - like it or not - to slaveowners and their chattel.
As for the "It was for 'State Rights' not 'Slavery' thing, I offer this, regarding the formation of the Confederate Constitution, from William C. Davis' Look Away:
"Significantly, in a movement that all declared to be predicated on the sovereignty of the states, the one area in which now and again in the future they would deny the state sovereignty would be slavery. ... Of all the many testimonials to the fact that slavery, and not states rights, really lay at the heart of the movement, this was the most eloquent of all. ... And as if further evidence were needed, after much discussion they also decided not to include any specific provision recognizing explicitly the right of a state to secede. None of their number should have the right to do them what they had just done to the Union."
Look Away: - pg. 97-98
"On this issue alone, they knowingly violated all the arguements about states rights that their section had been making for generations, for they set slavery above state sovereighty: inviolate, untouchable."
Look Away - pg. 106
Read that constitution as written, not as you interprete it to your liking.
Isn't that what William C. Davis has done; interpreted the constitution to his liking? Also, he is offering his opinion that slavery was the cause of secession and determined that it prevents the sovereignty of the Confederate states.
The Confederate Constitution of 1861
An Inquiry into American Constitutionalism
Page 77: In the final analysis, impeaching Confederate officials from the state (Article I, section 2 of the CSA Constitution) and the implied right of secession were the ultimate guarantees of state sovereignty in the constitutional areas of civil liberties and rights, because in the event that federal relations went sour in these areas, a state (or states) could impeach over-zealous Confederate officials, for example, activist Confederate judges, or withdraw from the Confederacy altogether. (45) For example, if Attorney Generals Watts and Davis decided to show no deference to the states, perhaps rationalizing that the contingencies of war necessitated a dominant Confederate government at the expense of state sovereignty, a state could constitutionally negate the policies of the CSA government by exercising its sovereignty through one of several options. Any state could initiate the impeachment of pertinent Confederate officials within its jurisdiction: any three states could initiate a constitutional convention; and any state could secede from the Confederacy. None of these options would have been unconstitutional remedies.
Page 78: Without question, the CSA Constitution, especially Article VI, clauses 5 and 6, defers to the states the defining and defense of the civil liberties and rights of their respective citizens. Furthermore, the CSA declaragion of rights is applicable to the Confederate government rather than to Confederate and state governments (unless specifically stated); the states delimit the rights and liberties of their inhabitants reaspectively, an important function of a sovereign state and consistent with the Confederate commitment that the states constitute distinct sovereign entities capable of judicious government.
There was no clause for secession in the CSA Constitution, because if there were it would be claiming that it was a right that could either be allowed or denied to the states rather than a natural right as a result of state sovereignty. To state it more simply, the Confederate Constitution had no right to give the states the right to secede...it wasn't within their power to allow or prevent secession.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
To state it more simply, the Confederate Constitution had no right to give the states the right to secede...it wasn't within their power to allow or prevent secession.
That was not the statement made. It was claimed that a CSA state could make laws regarding slavery as it saw fit. For instance, a state could not make a law however prohibiting a slave owner from making temporary residence with his slaves in that state......IOW, a law regarding slavery. If free states from the West were to join the confederacy, they would necessarily have to open their borders - like it or not - to slaveowners and their chattel.
Cedarstripper
Free states from the West didn't have to join the CSA if they objected to the temporary presence of slaves in their state. In this manner discrimination against a slave owner for carrying on legal business within the Confederate States was not permitted. And, as much state sovereignty as the CSA Constitution provided for and protected, there had to be some minimal rules in order for all of the states to reside together in peace. It's good to remember, also, that the states all agreed on this clause.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
And was one of the reasons the war came about, as Southern leadership in Congress tried to have that very same law forced down the throats of the Free States by trampling over their free state constitutions.
When that could not be done, a lot of rhetoric, mixed in with some agitation, add a dash of rebellion and volia! A Confederate constition that forever enshrines slavery as an institution backed up by state constitutions that either prohibit or make illegal the idea that black slaves could be freed within their states or within the CSA.
Coupled with the CSA Constitution's stipulation that no Free State could join the CSA without effectively becoming a slave state itself.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
A Confederate constition that forever enshrines slavery as an institution backed up by state constitutions that either prohibit or make illegal the idea that black slaves could be freed within their states or within the CSA.
I think you mean, it forever kept the federal government out of slavery.
Quote:
Coupled with the CSA Constitution's stipulation that no Free State could join the CSA without effectively becoming a slave state itself.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
So, I wonder why they felt they needed that totally redundant right of sojourn clause...
If you think I mean the government was forever restricted from interfering with slavery, that it could not do anything to endanger its continued existence, you are correct.
And the state constitutions, working in lock-step with its national government to ensure its continued survival, was the double-whammy that made it so.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
And was one of the reasons the war came about, as Southern leadership in Congress tried to have that very same law forced down the throats of the Free States by trampling over their free state constitutions.
Allowing slaves and owners to travel across the soil did not make a free state a slave state and couldn't possibly trample on their constitutions, but at any rate, the Confederate States of America was trying to eliminate any such disagreements from the beginning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
When that could not be done, a lot of rhetoric, mixed in with some agitation, add a dash of rebellion and volia! A Confederate constition that forever enshrines slavery as an institution backed up by state constitutions that either prohibit or make illegal the idea that black slaves could be freed within their states or within the CSA.
First of all, nothing is "forever". The CSA Constitution was was subject to amendment at the will of the people. In fact being a slave state wasn't a prerequisite for belonging to the CSA. As for the state constitutions the CSA government had no say unless it allowed for something prohibited to it by the central government , and there was nothing in the CSA Constitution that prohibited slaves being made free by their owners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Coupled with the CSA Constitution's stipulation that no Free State could join the CSA without effectively becoming a slave state itself.
That just isn't true. The Confederate Constitution merely protected their citizen's property while travelling across other Confederate states...not residing in, but travelling across. Any state could be a free state prohibiting the practice of slavery among their residents.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
How long could a slaveowner keep his slaves in a free state? One week? One month? One year? Is there a time limit on how long slaves can reside in a free state (once it joins the Confederacy, of course)? What if they are transported into a state for work on a project or railroad for instance? Are they there for the duration of the job if it takes 1 year, 2 years?
You miss the central point. State constitutions of the South no longer permitted the freeing of slaves starting in 1861. The CSA constitution would permit no change with the status of slaves. It was protected and then reinforced by the actions of state constitions within the Confederacy.
As for the concept nothing is forever, I tend to agree with you on that one, but it sure doesn't keep people from trying. The South was trying desperately to remain stationary, fixed within its concept of race, tradition and the concept of slavery. They really gave it their best shot to hold back time and remain fixed on keeping slavery as a cherished institution and a social constant.
Their national and state constitutions say this loud and clear.
And Rose, it was true that the CSA was rigging the game with the idea of new states joining their nation had to accept the idea of slavery being protected, even if they didn't want it.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
