Beyond the Battle of Little Round Top by Col. Chamberlain

[matthew mckeon]

Dear Blue Raider,
Most of the Confederate monuments are by state: Louisiana, Virginia, Alabama, etc., and put up early in the 20th century. Most of the Union monuments were by organizations of vets,in the latter part of the 19th century, memorializing their old units.

I don't remember the details, but I thought William Oates corresponded with Chamberlain about an Alabama monument after the war.

The most visited part of the battlefield, the "heart" of Gettysburg, is not LRT, but the High Water Mark on Cemetary Ridge. There the Confederate effort is celebrated. The fame of the action fought by the 20th Maine against the Alabamians is largely due to the novel and movie and is quite recent.

[Blue.Raider88]

LITTLE ROUND TOP - DON TROIANI

[M E Wolf]

Dear Blue_Raider,

It took General Longstreet to get a memorial after the film Gettysburg, and it isn't even on a pedestal. [Frowns] I don't think its a very good memorial at that but--at least there is one for him 'finally!'

Perhaps an introduction of a bill in the Alabama legislature.

Regardless--we are remembering [Smiles], to which no memorial can ever accomplish.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[William]

Could someone outline Ellis Spear's problems with Chamberlain following the war? He is portrayed in the film as a rather competent sub-ordinate, but seems he might have had a problem with Chamberlain giving himself too much credit for the 20th Maine's stand on LRT?

[cw1865]

The hero image of Chamberlain is that he orders regiment to fix bayonets and to physically make the charge. The alternative is that bayonets were fixed and a small group of soldiers took the initiative to pull in a wounded comrade which was mistaken as an order to charge......

Problem is that Chamberlain's actions at Gettysburg truly are the inflection point of his life. It eventually makes him a general. Post-War he becomes Governor of Maine, president of the college (Bowdoin (sp?) - and really he never forgets that Little Round Top is the place that made the man.

Problems start to arise when Oates applies to have a marker placed for the 15th Alabama. Unfortunately Oates wanted to place the monument in a spot well behind Chamberlain's stated line.

Other member's of the 20th Maine don't specifically remember the order to charge; while others point out that other members of V corps also fought to control the hill.

At the end of the day, it is what it is.....battles are confusing.

I just got back from Gettysburg and one thing to consider is how perceptions are shaped by stress. The author of the book I was reading was analyzing Pickett's charge and noted how the first Confederate shot was remembered by Union personnel. Some had it hitting a lieutenant, some had it falling short, others had it falling long, one saw it explode and wound six men. But all seem to remember 'the first cannon shot' to soften up Cemetery Ridge.

The 20th Maine was at Little Round Top, the regiment did charge down the hill with bayonets fixed...this is not disputed by history. Does this make Chamberlain the 'savior of Little Round Top' - you be the judge.....

[William]

Here is a letter written by Ellis Spear to his granddaughter in 1910:

http://www.brotherswar.com/Civil_War_Quotes_4m.htm

It seems to substantiate what cw1865 said about perceptions, but Chamberlain's name isn't mentioned and I couldn't detect much hostility towards anyone in particular, but then again he was writing this to his young granddaughter so perhaps he felt that would be out of place.

[J_Man0507]

Originally Posted by William

Could someone outline Ellis Spear's problems with Chamberlain following the war? He is portrayed in the film as a rather competent sub-ordinate, but seems he might have had a problem with Chamberlain giving himself too much credit for the 20th Maine's stand on LRT?

Ellis Spear was a very competent subordinate and rose to the rank of brevet Brigadier General. He always remained a fond admirer of Joshua Chamberlain, and they remained friends for the rest of their days, corresponding and sending Christmas cards. However, Spears problem was with what he saw as Chamberlain's egotism. As he saw it, Chamberlain was alway concerned about how his actions would be seen by the people around him and in his impact on history. He had what Spears considered and "inordinate vanity" and though they remained friends, Spears did write Chamberlain off as an egotist. He didn't hate him, but he just thought Chamberlain was too full of himself, embellishing facts during his campaigns for Governor of Maine, and making himself out to be someone he wasn't. Surely, he did a great service to the Union and served bravely, but he was too much like many of the other political and non-professional soldiers who later on used their service to further their own ambitions. That, in a nutshell, is the problem that Spears had with Chamberlain.

[William]

Originally Posted by J_Man0507

Ellis Spear was a very competent subordinate and rose to the rank of brevet Brigadier General. He always remained a fond admirer of Joshua Chamberlain, and they remained friends for the rest of their days, corresponding and sending Christmas cards. However, Spears problem was with what he saw as Chamberlain's egotism. As he saw it, Chamberlain was alway concerned about how his actions would be seen by the people around him and in his impact on history. He had what Spears considered and "inordinate vanity" and though they remained friends, Spears did write Chamberlain off as an egotist. He didn't hate him, but he just thought Chamberlain was too full of himself, embellishing facts during his campaigns for Governor of Maine, and making himself out to be someone he wasn't. Surely, he did a great service to the Union and served bravely, but he was too much like many of the other political and non-professional soldiers who later on used their service to further their own ambitions. That, in a nutshell, is the problem that Spears had with Chamberlain.

While I don't disagree that there are many who use their military service to further their political ambitions there is also the factor that many of these people would not be in this situation if it wasn't for their military service. I somehow doubt that Ulysses S. Grant or Dwight Eisenhower would have been President if it weren't for their service to their country.

I guess what I'm saying is that the public viewed Grant (well the North did) as a hero and the whole country viewed Eisenhower as a hero and that definitely helped propel them to the Presidency, but to agree with what you wrote they certainly were aware of this and probably used this to their full advantage.

[J_Man0507]

Originally Posted by William

While I don't disagree that there are many who use their military service to further their political ambitions there is also the factor that many of these people would not be in this situation if it wasn't for their military service. I somehow doubt that Ulysses S. Grant or Dwight Eisenhower would have been President if it weren't for their service to their country.

I guess what I'm saying is that the public viewed Grant (well the North did) as a hero and the whole country viewed Eisenhower as a hero and that definitely helped propel them to the Presidency, but to agree with what you wrote they certainly were aware of this and probably used this to their full advantage.

There were quite a few men of that day and age who used military service, and even prowess, as propellant into the arena of politics (and I noticed you have started a thread pertaining to this idea). And it isn't necessarily a problems, per se. Spears problem with Chamberlain, in this case, was his egotism, not the fact that he ascended to the seat of Governor of Maine due to his success in the war. Chamberlain, in Spears opinion (and the opinion of some modern day scholars) had embellished on the action at LRT and during the war and used it to his advantage. Chamberlain did a great good on July 2, to be sure, but it wasn't the only courageous action of the day, and it certainly wasn't all the 20th Maine that deserved the credit, though they fought gallantly. To glorify himself and what he did, and use it to political advantage was, in many people's opinions, past and present, a disservice. I don't remember hearing about Grant or Eisenhower selfishly promoting themselves for their service and boasting of their military exploits. Many men who had done great service to the country were elected as President: Washington, Jackson, W.H. Harrison, Zachary Taylor, Grant, and Garfield for that matter. They served and went on to serve in politics, and it is assured that their military service had a great deal to do with it. But atleast in the case of Chamberlain, he used it too much, and he made some people upset by doing it.

[M E Wolf]

Dear William,

In regard to Major Ellis Spear's negativities of Colonel - Maj. General Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain; was the 'issue' of who ordered 'Bayonet!'

However, as time went by--others confirm that Chamberlain had developed his tactical choice by using a down hill charge with Bayonet. Even if Ellis did suggest the charge of Bayonet --he still would have had to clear it through Chamberlain. According to Official Reports- Captain Merritt was next senior officer to which if Chamberlain fell - Merritt would have command--it remains Chamberlain's order--which all the rest is history.

As far as embellishing -- I don't think many escape the temptation regardless of ranks--but, if I am running for a Maine office, I would keep Maine's connection to himself and the 20th Maine at Little Round Top as well as Big Round Top.

That said, in reading the Official Records of the Rebellion of those in immediate command over Chamberlain; their writings of the action on LRT and BRT was very fancy and embellished. Now, I am talking about General Ames, General Sykes and Colonel Rice who witnessed it.

Now, that in consideration -- I am wondering if there is a difference of perception by others but, when you are dealing with a teacher (Ellis) vs. a professor (Chamberlain) there is also society status and way of speaking--formal vs. casual; there could be a case where Ellis was suffering from insecurities about his own importance ---often when people attack someone, what they see in others is what they see in themselves. I find this true with my remaining parent. Never fault of theirs and point elsewhere and, this parent has always been very insecure and jealous over my successes, sister's successes.

But, having superior officers --as far as Chamberlain goes--going obvious lengths to point out the heroics of the troops -- all the troops of Chamberlain's. Chamberlain did nominate Sergeat Andrew Tozier for the Medal of Honor--Here is the citation:
Tozier, Andrew J.Rank and organization: Sergeant, Company I, 20th Maine Infantry. Place and date: At Gettysburg, Pa., 2 July 1863. Entered service at: Plymouth, Maine. Birth: Monmouth, Maine. Date of issue: 13 August 1898. Citation: At the crisis of the engagement this soldier, a color bearer, stood alone in an advanced position, the regiment having been borne back, and defended his colors with musket and ammunition picked up at his feet.

Also, Chamberlain's home town were putting progress of their hometown boys in their newspapers. Chamberlain's charge with bayonets was just one incident out of his many woundings--the hip injury would eventually kill him but, he was wounded about 5-6 times (depending how you count wounds)...to include the foot wound at LRT when a minie ball or spent shell hit the boot.

I also feel, that all civilian officers had to find their own leadership strength through crisis. Regular Army and West Pointers snubbed these civilian officers until they all proved themselves. Being a West Point Grad, as it was proven over the course of the Civil War; doesn't determine a good field commander. Some were perfect for Administration--some not. Same with field command.

It is also easy to be influenced by historian's comments and observations; by novel writers fitting a book out for reading consumption based on as many facts as possible but, always missing will be puzzle pieces; and the license of movie directors. The director swapped many character's places from the book Killer Angels.

But, as has been said, General Chamberlain's assignment on LRT was not even considered anything special until after the movie brought it to our attention and or the Shaara book "Killer Angels" which focused on the unsung heros of Gettysburg -- Longstreet, Chamberlain and Buford. The triumphs and tragedies of the whole Battle at Gettysburg.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf