Who lost Gettysburg

[ole]

Thanks for the kind words (the beard comes off today). Question for you or any others who might care to comment: Say Pickett's men break through and divide the Union army. What happens then?

I simplistically believe that he is surrounded by some highly irritated veteran fighters. Instead of the remnants retreating, they are rounded up and sent off as POWs.

What do you think?

Ole

[Dred]

Originally Posted by cw1865

So, if Lee does move to the right around Meade's left and pulls off the maneuver, how exactly does he get out?

It woudln't be the first time Lee found himself in a bad spot. He always managed to get out. How was he going to get out before, with his troops in York and Harrisburg and the Union army south of him? The 10,000 in DC weren't going to come out, Lincoln never would have allowed the city to be stripped beer (bear, bare?). Lee would know this, and it would allow him to come very close to the city without being molested, giving him a very wide gap to slip through and back south to Richmond if he needed.

[larry_cockerham]

Originally Posted by ole

Thanks for the kind words (the beard comes off today). Question for you or any others who might care to comment: Say Pickett's men break through and divide the Union army. What happens then?

I simplistically believe that he is surrounded by some highly irritated veteran fighters. Instead of the remnants retreating, they are rounded up and sent off as POWs.

What do you think?

Ole

I suspect there is merit to your conclusion. Lee's fine line was far too long and exhausted to have collapsed from the ends in support of a breakthrough. Certainly the Alabama and Georgia boys in the Devils den and south to the end of little round top had problems of their own. Out of gas, bullets and manpower. My Virginians trying to trash Culp's hill were lost in the woods under heavy fire. I'm afraid Pickett would have been much like a hole in an old inner tube (showing our age) just waiting for a patch.

[whitworth]

He brought three corps to Gettysburg, without adequate forage, to a county, Adams, that could not, logistically, support his army and the thousands of Confederate horses, for long in early July, 1863.

Lee attempted to cross two corps, plus some of Ewell's Corps over one narrow road, leading from Chambersburg to Gettysburg.

Know how you're going in; know how you're getting out.

Lee failed to realize the second part of that idea, because he had three corps with one egress out of Gettysburg. Pickett's Charge, while a military disaster, did free up the Emmitsburg road for a two road retreat.

Historians seem to miss that Lee admitted he could not await an attack, but must attack, as his supplies would not last too many days. Lee had placed his army at Gettysburg, where it could only attack. Successful on the first day; checked the second; the third day proved disasterous. Lee did not give his army very good options by moving all his corps to Gettysburg.

IMO, Lee's move to Gettysburg was a great mistake. Meade, from his spies and scouts from the Gettysburg, would have known that Adams County was a great place to block and trap the Army of Northern Virginia. Even if only for a few days. Meade only had to wear them down or wear them out.

As was proved, Meade only needed three days for the Army of Northern Virginia to move into a quick retreat, for such a large army.

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by Dred

It woudln't be the first time Lee found himself in a bad spot. He always managed to get out. How was he going to get out before, with his troops in York and Harrisburg and the Union army south of him? The 10,000 in DC weren't going to come out, Lincoln never would have allowed the city to be stripped beer (bear, bare?). Lee would know this, and it would allow him to come very close to the city without being molested, giving him a very wide gap to slip through and back south to Richmond if he needed.

I think if Lee actually crosses the Susquehanna he's sunk, he doesn't get back across. York is too far east, Lee will also have difficulty getting out of there too. I think you're correct, soldiers in DC are going to stay in DC.

If Lee does slip around Meade's left, going to his right, instead of attacking at Gettysburg, his only real option for retreat is going to be directly south and to cross the Potomac. As you come east, the Potomac becomes an increasingly more difficult river to cross as it does get wider. Even going back the way he came, Lee actually does get pinned north of the Potomac, of course Meade isn't particularly aggressive.

But of course part of the slip to the right plan counts on Meade actually assaulting Lee on Lee's terms. Frankly, I just don't think Meade is going to do it on any terms! Lee would interpose between Meade and Washington and I think Meade would just stare at him.

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by whitworth

Lee failed to realize the second part of that idea, because he had three corps with one egress out of Gettysburg. Pickett's Charge, while a military disaster, did free up the Emmitsburg road for a two road retreat.

Its not really why he loses at Gettysburg though, his army is there and while the Federals do knock out the Potomac crossings pinning Lee on the northern bank of the Potomac, Meade doesn't take advantage, so really I think its kind of moot because Lee does make the retreat. If you're going to invade the North, you have to deal with the infrastructure available, so when you see the routes that the armies were taking and see how many roads connect at Gettysburg, you can see how the armies had an excellent change of stumbling into each other in that location.

[michiganmoon]

"I think the yankees had something to do with it" - Pickett on why the Army of Northern Virginia lost at Gettysburg

[whitworth]

Lee lost it by taking his three army corps to Gettysburg, in a constrained Adams county, short of supplies to take care of his soldiers and his horses and mules.
Lee had to attack because supplies were running short for three corps.
General Lee, in a dispatch to Gen Ewell, noted that eventual critical happening, less than ten days earlier. "It will depend upon the quantity of supplies obtained in that country[Pennsylvania], whether the rest of the army can follow. There may be enough for your command, but none for the others."

Such would come true in ten days, as Lee said he was forced to attack at Gettysburg, because of Confederate supply shortages. He was forced not to await an attack by the Army of the Potomac.

[VS on the belt plate]

I dont think Lee was overly concerned about his commisary. Never the less,it could have been a factor. But remember that the ANV ranged over many counties in Pa. I dont know of any Confederates that wrote they were starving during the Pennsylvania campaign. The horses and mules? They did'nt leave any written accounts...who knows?. LOL No doubt Lee knew he could not support himself forever in Pennsylvania,you may find forage for your men and animals...but not ordnance.

Its strange. It seems there were numerous instances of outstanding incompetance amongst Confederate luminaries,and outstanding competance amongst Union luminaries. Lee himself felt that the wounding of Hood on July 2nd...led to his turning back to Virginia.

This campaign will be studied and the questions asked again and again long after we're dead.

VS

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by VS on the belt plate

outstanding competance amongst Union luminaries.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut.