Civil War History - Gettysburg ForumGettysburg! It's not just a National Park. It's a Civil War Battlefield. For some it's historic and storied past are almost an obsession! All related discussions are welcome here!
Bragg took the offensive after he recieved reinforcements from other theaters of operation, including the ANV.
Braggs initial movements before all reinforcements were on hand probably says a lot about his generalship. But the fact is he knew Longstreet was on his way.
The 'crowd' may in fact be what is called a consensus and has just as much chance of being right as a differing 'crowd'.
Bragg took the offensive after he recieved reinforcements from other theaters of operation, including the ANV.
Braggs initial movements before all reinforcements were on hand probably says a lot about his generalship. But the fact is he knew Longstreet was on his way.
The 'crowd' may in fact be what is called a consensus and has just as much chance of being right as a differing 'crowd'.
As I've already said, Bragg went on the offensive before Longstreet's troops had even arrived. He tried to smash isolated bits of Rosecran's army, hence the whole McLemore's Cove affair. He wasn't waiting for Longstreet, although he was obviously glad to get him. But I'm not sure how this relates to our discussion about Gettysburg.
And I'd love to see some evidence of this supposed "consensus" that apparently has all the right answers here. Can you provide some evidence to refute any of my claims, or are you merely citing an imaginary group of scholars? I don't mean to be testy, but you keep dismissing my points with offhand comments with no support or ignoring them entirely.
__________________ Up men, and to your post! And let no man forget today that you are from old Virginia!
Sam, does it really matter? It's an excellent, informative discussion. I'm learning a lot.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
Ok…..I have read this thread and have seen some say it was Lee’s fault(“It is all my fault”). But let’s look at Lee from a different perspective. From early times at West Point he did not receive a single demerit…. A perfect record. Some would say that’s impossible. But he did it. He didn’t smoke nor drink nor “cuss”. He was of such dignity and character that when his own men were sent before him he corrected them with justice and with leniency. He had those captured treated with the same amount of justice and respect. His character was so impeccable that many today could not fathom how anyone could be that way. Now with all I’ve typed, I’m going to put a big “What if” before everyone. When Robert E. Lee said “It’s all my fault” was he really taking the blame for those who did not measure up to the task that was laid before them? Was he taking the blame so that those who should have been at fault were given a second chance? Was he becoming the martyr so the ANV would not lose face? If so…..and I think it’s feasible…..then he was more than a great tactician. He was a great human being.
Rad, I agree with you. Lee was, without a doubt, an officer and a gentleman. But, any defeat his army was to endure would automatically be his fault, would it not? He was the commanding General.
I don't know the history of the decision made to invade the North this second time. Perhaps someone could provide some insight into that. But Lee, whether Davis forced him to do it, or if Lee decided it himself and convinced Davis it was necessary;he knew that "Hail Mary Pass" had to be thrown one more time. Nothing less than the fate of the entire Confederacy rested on the catch of that ball; ie. victory, possible recognition and assistance from the Brits and the French, and the establishment of a new nation based on slavery. Was that morally acceptable? I don't think so, for Lee. He was fighting for Virginia, not slavery.
He had no choice. He prepared as best he could to make the circumstances for victory the most favorable to him, and he lobbed that ball, as accurately as he possibly could.
Would the South, or Davis, accepted anything less? No.
If Lee had said to Pickett, "Hey, you know what? We're gonna get shellacked if we charge that copse of trees. Turn your boys around, head south, and let's get the heck outta here. We're done."
What would Lee's legacy be now, if that had happened? If he had not even tried? Would he be the same respected leader, as he is now? Hardly. The South would have cooked him in the papers. But he did try, his boys gave it all they had, and just like in the Superbowl, sometimes that "Hail Mary", just doesn't work out.
It was a last ditch effort, and still to this day I don't fault Lee for the loss. He tried. He is no less the General for failing. He would even have been much less the General had he not even tried, even as disastrous as the affair ended. (Sorry for the football analogy)
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
"I don't know the history of the decision made to invade the North this second time. "
Lee has to do some convincing of the CSA government to let him invade the north a second time, over other options. Of course, Davis came on board quicker than some of the others.
Ive never held Lee accountable for the loss at Gettysburg. In fact, I've always looked at his battle plans for the engagement as some of his best. Rather, a new command structure and poor performance on the part of his subordinates lost the battle for Lee. Keeping in mind that Lee did not want the battle in the first place, the ANV came extremely close to sealing the deal on the first day, yet Ewell did not take Culp's Hill and forfeited that key piece of high ground.
On the second day, Lee's plan to simultaneously hit the Federal flanks would have worked perfectly. Ewell was never really supposed to find success, but merely hold the Federals in position. Longstreet's attack on the Federal left would have worked well had it not been launched at FOUR in the afternoon. Even then, they still crippled the 3rd Corps, took part of Cemetary ridge, and the Devil's Den. Had it been launched earlier, they would have certainly taken the Round Tops and flanked the Union Army.
By the third day, the army could not pull out and had to stay to fight. Pickett's Charge in its ideology made sense. Lee's logic that both flanks had been reinforced thus necessitated a weakness in the center. Despite Longstreet's timing put the attack later than it should have. Ewell's diversionary attack was already repulsed and gains of the previous day lost.
Lee's plans, if excecuted correctly would have won the battle, and perhaps the war for the South. Of course if this was the case, no one would have questioned the invasion of the North and been hailed as a masterpiece of generalship.
__________________ Ancestors in the 28th, 38th, 46th, 59th and 22nd Btn. Virginia Infantry and 2nd Virginia Cavalry.
"Essentially, Lee lost the battle by his inability (for whatever reason) to exercise effective command
and control of his senior officers and thus his army."
Reply: Because his army was so short of forage going from Virginia, Lee had to separate his army, thereby losing close control. He even wrote to Ewell saying he, Lee, was not so sure Ewell's Corps would find enough forage, as the lead corps into Pennsylvania. Because the army was in different locations, prior to Gettysburg, his whole army did not arrive on the battlefield on July 1.
Lee was forced to squeeze two corps through a small gap on the Chambersburg-Gettysburg Pike, delaying any hope for a quick move to Gettysburg, by his whole army.
*****
"Lee was absolutely right to add a third corps. Two corps were way too unwieldy."
Reply:Logistically, Lee would never move to Pennsylvania with two corps. The ANV was seriously short of forage for the horses and mules, leaving Virginia. He had to scatter his forces, so they could forage in Pennsylvania in smaller numbers.
If Stonewall Jackson were alive, what would his reaction be to seeing his corps reduced in numbers for the Pennsylvania campaign?
*****
"Lee knew better than to send Ewell on a fool's errand up a hill at night to get his division massacred."
Reply:I've yet to see one historian, or hear of one historian analyse, what Ewell actually said in his Gettysburg report, why he did not attack Cemetery Hill on July 1 ?
*****
"Was Pickett's charge a bold or foolhardy move for Lee? I remember watching Ken Burns' film on the Civil War, where Shelby Foote said that "Lee's blood was up", or something similar, that morning of July 3rd."
Reply:Finding himself in Gettysburg, with a mountain at his back, with only one secure egress, Lee did not have a lot of options. He couldn't wait for the AoP to find his weakness on the right flank. Lee couldn't wait for the AoP to bring up more troops, so he attacked on July 2. By July 3, knowing withdrawal might come as the only option, Lee had to make sure his army had the Fairfield road secure.
In retrospect, Lee needed two roads for his retreat back to Virginia. I would assume a general of Lee's stature would have known that on July 3.
But then, Lee never made any mistakes, or would think his ANV was in a bad place for egress, according to historians.
*****
"I cannot believe the military critics will find any real difficulties in our abstaining from further assault on the following day."
Reply:Of course, Lee attacked on the second day, because by waiting, he knew it gave the AoP another day to get troops and supplies to Gettysburg. Time was with the AoP. It was not with the ANV. The ANV was cut off from Virginia and its supplies. Adams County did not have as many farms or as many places to forage. Lee didn't have time to wait in the Gettysburg area. Wait another day and the AoP would have more troops in a defensive position, with more ammunition and supplies, and prepared to stay.
*****
"In fact, Davis did send reinforcements from Lee to Bragg (too late to send them to Pemberton) After Gettysburg. Did Bragg decide to go onto the offensive 'because' of assurances of reinforcements from the East? If so, then the Victory at Chickamauga, was due directly, in more ways than one, to reinforcements from another theater of operations."
Reply:One of the overlooked facts, is Longstreet did not get up all his troops for Chickamauga, and had a difficult time, just getting to northern Georgia. Moving troops from Virginia to Georgia was one "miracle"; moving to Mississippi was beyond the realm. The Confederacy had a bad railroad system, that was breaking down with each passing year of the war.
*****
"I don't think so, for Lee. He was fighting for Virginia, not slavery."
"The South would have cooked him in the papers."
Reply:As a general in the confederate army, he was sworn to uphold the Constitution of the Confederate States. He was defending a constitution that held that the right to own slaves, was a constitutional right. That no state in the Confederacy had the right to ban slavery.
Lee's resignation was asked for by some southern newspapers after Gettysburg, because of the huge losses in soldiers.
If Meade had run out of artillery ammunition at Gettysburg and was forced to retreat towards Baltimore, he would have been "fried in oil" by the Northern press and replaced. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia ran out of long-range artillery ammunition, just prior to Pickett's Charge. Are you aware of that fact? Ever read such in any history of Gettysburg?
Of course, we must remember, during the Civil War, Gen. R.E. Lee never made a mistake.
*****
"Ive never held Lee accountable for the loss at Gettysburg. In fact, I've always looked at his battle plans for the engagement as some of his best. Rather, a new command structure and poor performance on the part of his subordinates lost the battle for Lee."
Reply:Unfortunately, this is the account passed down over some 140 years by historians, with little or no differentiation. The premise is Lee never made a mistake. Never! That if one looks in that direction, at Lee's errors and mistakes, one asks the ultimate question to why the Confederacy even started the war.
The question is not whether the Confederate soldiers fought bravely. The questions is how even brave soldiers, brave and logistically short of war materiale, can win a war?
The cracks in the ANV logistics armor, showed in the Pennsylvania campaign. Once away from its supply base in Richmond and its defensive trenches, it was a weaker army.
Moving from Chambersburg to Gettysburg was one of the great mistakes of the campaign for the Army of Northern Virginia. But Lee never made a mistake, as historians infer. And who can expect the historian to say that Gettysburg was a bad place for the ANV to find itself?
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