Dan Sickles, Union Savior?

[cw1865]

At what point does Lee become aware that Sickles is sitting in the Peach Orchard?

[ole]

What an absolutely fantastic question! Does he become aware before Longstreet commits his forces? When, exactly, did he learn that his orders were fubar? And what did he do? Goshamighty. Willl be waiting for the learned to pitch in on that one. Many thanks for the question.

ole

[OpnDownfall]

Apparently, there is no official record of Lee's whereabouts at the time of Sickles' forward movement (or indeed, during the battle itself). Although, it is unlikely that the advance of 10,00 men, in formal array, with flags waving, towards the confederate lines could have escaped Lee's notice.
Sickles sent Col. Berdan with two Reg'ts to the Peach Orchard to make a reconnaisance in force to locate and determine the strength of the opposition there, a little after 12:00 Noon. Then 3d Corps makes it forward movement a little after 1:00 o'clock, finishining it movment around 3:00. Longstreet's formal attack did not commence until around a little after 4:00.
Like Gen. Hill, just before and during the battle, Lee apparently, disappeared.
If Lee had always assumed the Peach Orchard was the Left anchor of the AoP. What would he have made of a whole Union corps moving up to occupy that position at 1 - 3:00 in the afternoon and what did he think when Longstreed did not attack until an hour later?

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by OpnDownfall

Although, it is unlikely that the advance of 10,00 men, in formal array, with flags waving, towards the confederate lines could have escaped Lee's notice.

Exactly, if he didn't know, he didn't know, but HE SHOULD'VE KNOWN, he's the commander! The old maxim that a plan will not survive first contact with the enemy applies. No matter what we think of Sickles' actions, from the Confederate point of view, it is irrelevant, Sickles is, in fact, there, and the plan needs to accomodate the movement.

Hood is desperately trying to get Longstreet to recognize the tactical situation has changed and to permit the swing around Sickles (which he does anyway).

[PINCKNEYUSMCRET]

Looks like Hood was trying to adapt, improvise, and overcome. Lee and Longstreet should have known, is this something that not having calavery for eyes can be blamed on. There are times when you should just pick up your trash and look for another opportunity. Maybe Gettysburg was one of those times.

[ole]

There are times when you should just pick up your trash and look for another opportunity.

Perzackle. Amen. If one were to make a list of all the bone-headed actions on Day 2, on both sides, one would need an entire notebook (narrow ruled) and an extra-fine pen so as to write tiny.

[OpnDownfall]

From a southern view, it can be argued that in retrospect, it might have been better if Hood had followed Longstreet's orders and attacked the area around Devil's Den and the western foot of LRT. The added weight of the brigade(s) sent further East to envelope LRT, might have broken through earlier and could have completely surrounded the remnants of 3d Corps or even occupied Seminary Ridge on it's south end and with Hills last minute success at the center of the Union Line, might easily have convinced Meade to implement the retreat plans he had ordered to be prepared earlier.
A Maximum effort North, along the base of LRT (instead of losing extra force attempting to occupy the whole hill) might have yielded a southern victory at the end of Day 2.

[M E Wolf]

Dear List Members:

By chance have any looked at the web inquiry called "Sickle's Hole." I did a web browser inquiry on General Daniel E. Sickles and looked at "Sickle's Hole." Very interesting and -- It has some interesting comments.

I will also mention, that when General Sickles was wounded, after his leg amputated he 'insisted' on being returned to Washington. He then started weaving his web of stories being the first back in Washington with the reports about Gettysburg.

He was later associated with some embezzlement of money for the memorial projects concerning Gettysburg. However, he did save Gettysburg by getting the Government to save the Battlefield of Gettysburg and preserve it for future generations.

I do agree with President Lincoln that General Meade was not going to be successful in a war in the press type of situation. Smear campaigns then are no different now. However; these things come to my summary of General Sickles. Sickles had been given an order. He was insubordinate.
Yes, he might have been in a hole but--the tactics General Meade might have been to bait the Confederates and as they committed--to pop up Sickles' Corps and fight a surprised Confederate Corps. By being insubordinate, he distracted General Hancock and perhaps other commanding officers. Distracting fellow Generals about ready to fight an enemy would not hold me 'endearing' to the man.

There are indeed many 'what ifs'--well, the fact remains we're dealing with what was and based on may different stories and accounts. It wasn't recorded by movie cameras so it could be replaying for review.

What I do come away with, given positions by everybody--the line of sight is different for everybody, as well as judgment of ground. Battle lines are 'fluid.' It has to be. However, it was unfortunate that General Meade had to be distracted by General Sickles as to get him back in line with the rest. It was too late for Meade to get him back in place and Sickles in need of rescue, pulled valuable resources and troops to save as much of Third Corps as possible. IF Sickles was indeed 'in a hole' he could have been on the back rim of the hill --not the frontal part of the rim--In my opinion.

I will also add, battlefield pictures look more sharply defined in vintage Civil War photographs compared to the present. Age has rounded those edges and has changed the ground. I have found this to be the case, especially true at Bull Run/Manassas Battlefield and believe such to be the same for Gettysburg. Also, it was over many years after the battle was over at Gettysburg, before it was made into a National Battlefield to be protected.

Just some thoughts.

Sincerely,
M. E. Weyraugh

[M E Wolf]

Dear OpnDownfall and List Members;

I also find it interesting, that there is no 'official' record as to General Lee's whereabouts during the area of General Sickles' movements and the like. Surely, wouldn't one of his aide-de-camps, staff members be with him always, a courier and or someone--just to handle messages/reports?
Could it be General was indeed 'sick' and was taking a rest? Putting in motion and having Generals taking that battle plan--I can assume he has some moments to take a dump, a 10 minute nap.

Reference to the movie Gettysburg, I do recall General Longstreet telling General "Sam" Hood that he had argued constantly with General Lee, about taking the course of assault on Little Round Top. General Longstreet told General Hood--"I cannot change the commanding general's order." I have to agree--that you can only do so much and passionately present cause for one's case in front of the Commanding General but--it still is General Lee who commands and makes the final battlefield orders. I think from that point--regardless of sides; everybody prays and hopes they see the end of the battle alive.

I also will mention that this site's "Letters" titled Gettysburg Report by General Longstreet dated 7-27-1863 and General Lee's reports--to include General Lee's "Official" report dated 1/1864; is full of information.

In another direction please--In regard to General Longstreet; I do believe the South and former veterans, et.al.; were not seeing the 'man' post Civil War--who saw the need for the country/South to get on and get healthy as to be part of the Union and equal in power with the other sister states. I don't see it 'bashing' the South, holding ill will towards General Lee and the like. I believe General Lee was still hurting from having to surrender and was just upset about it all. I'm sure there were a lot of 'what ifs' then too. I further feel, the Southern people put General Lee on such a high throne that his defeat was everybody's fault but the facts and not so much the people surrounding him. Everybody has flaws in war. The real flaw was the lack of supply to match the demands of the troops and when troops are not whole and supplied--Generals have to work with what they have. The trickle down through the chain of command also can affect General's plans--especially if orders are vague. The game of 'telephone' as kids prove that saying one thing, many times it changes by time it gets to the last person and entirely different from the original message.

Could there have been spying from the Union in Confederate ranks? Could there have been internal sabatoge? Could have messages been intercepted? Lot of things could have taken place. Could there have been a change of signal officers flag codes as to throw things off--so many questions. Pity we have no Sylvia Browne to talk to these long dead participants.

Just some thoughts.

Sincerely,
M. E. Wolf

[Hanny]

How about some maths to anser this question?

L-Street 11/37 is using 29% of the Anv Brig, against 25/50 or 50% of the AoP. L-street losses are 6k spread out over 30% of the ANV, Sickles etc is 10k spread out over 50% of the AoP Brigades.

We can fiddle with the losses brigades used if you like, but what will the numbers tell us is what we are after.