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  #231  
Old 08-23-2007, 10:37 PM
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Default Grumpy today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
grrrrUMP.....grrrrUMP......grrUMP grrUMP grrrUmp.
? don't understand what you mean? inside joke?
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  #232  
Old 08-24-2007, 10:21 AM
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Default Dan Sickles, Union Savior?

Attacking Hancock, would have put Sickles on Longstreet's right flank, had he remained in position. In which case, Sickles probably did more harm than good to the Union Cause.
Others have postulated (including me) that Lee was not aware that he was facing almost the whole of the AoP. To anyone familiar with the notorious slow pace of the AoP on the march, it would have been (and was) a revelation to see the AoP concentrate as fast as it did at Gettysburg
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  #233  
Old 08-24-2007, 01:00 PM
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Default Sickle's Flank Attack?

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Originally Posted by OpnDownfall
Attacking Hancock, would have put Sickles on Longstreet's right flank, had he remained in position.
IF Sickles comes out and actually hits Longstreet's right flank. Meade's response to the assault would have been to shuffle troops to bolster Hancock at the point of the attack, I don't think Meade would've sent Sickles forward to attack Longstreet's right flank.....essentially its a massive what if because we're trying to determine if the Army of the Potomac is better off with Sickles remaining in his original position or if they are better off with Sickles sticking his nose out.

Typically the condemnation of Sickles is that he left Little Round Top unprotected, inviting disaster. TRUE, BUT Hood only goes around Sickles to an empty Little Round Top because Sickles is in the Peach Orchard.

After a while the logic begins to get a little circular.
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  #234  
Old 08-24-2007, 06:08 PM
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Default Dan Sickles, Union Savior?

I agree that Sickles remaining on Cemetary Ridge, is really a 'What If' proposition, since it did not happen.
Since the original plan of attack did not really include the Round Tops, it is hard to imagine that Longstreet was Not attacking Hancocks left flank.
I have read some speculations that Lee's plan was a form of Oblique Order advance (flank attack) en echelon against Sickles' original Cemetary Ridge position. But even if true, the historical evidence indicates that Sickle's Corps would still have been shattered and Hancock's would, probably, have been rolled up too, with Meade losing Cemetery Hill in the process.
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  #235  
Old 08-24-2007, 11:57 PM
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I have read some speculations that Lee's plan was a form of Oblique Order advance (flank attack) en echelon against Sickles' original Cemetary Ridge position. But even if true, the historical evidence indicates that Sickle's Corps would still have been shattered and Hancock's would, probably, have been rolled up too, with Meade losing Cemetery Hill in the process.
On day 2, Lee's plan was obsolete. Although I'll accept that Sickles' move disrupted the carefully orchestrated, Day 1-oriented attack, it remains that the "American Scoundrel's" unauthorized placement of his corps overstretched the bounds of on-the-battlefield initiative.

That his "initiative" didn't result in in Union defeat on day 2 is his good fortune. One might play a little with orders, and that's expected, but this one went way outside of adjusting to circumstances.

ole
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  #236  
Old 08-25-2007, 12:50 AM
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Default True

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Originally Posted by ole
unauthorized placement of his corps overstretched the bounds of on-the-battlefield initiative.
And even a Sickles defender, like myself, must acknowledge that this is true for one very simple reason: Meade orders Sickles to cover Little Round Top which makes Little Round Top the Army of the Potomac's left flank.
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  #237  
Old 08-25-2007, 01:08 AM
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Default Emmitsburg Road

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpnDownfall
I have read some speculations that Lee's plan was a form of Oblique Order advance (flank attack) en echelon against Sickles' original Cemetary Ridge position. But even if true, the historical evidence indicates that Sickle's Corps would still have been shattered and Hancock's would, probably, have been rolled up too, with Meade losing Cemetery Hill in the process.
The 'problem' with Lee's plan is that he's ordering Longstreet up the Emmitsburg Road which in the strictest sense leads directly into Gettysburg; but obiously Lee isn't ordering his right wing to march in front of Federal fire just to get to 'tip' of the Federal position. His attack may theoretically land at the junction of Sickles and Hancock; so Sickles may be involved in fighting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:G...e_Map_Day2.png

The wikipedia map is actually pretty good because I think it illustrates Lee's intention to apply serious pressure on Hancock. Now, if you look on the map you clearly see four Confederate arrows. Two of those arrows are being absorbed by Sickles, Hood's hook around Sickles will be absorbed on Little Round Top, but the Fourth one, the arrow originating from AP Hill's corps will actually make a brief penetration of Cemetery Ridge that day. The assault clearly shatters Sickles, BUT it doesn't shatter the fishook
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  #238  
Old 08-25-2007, 01:12 AM
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Default No foresight

Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
That his "initiative" didn't result in in Union defeat on day 2 is his good fortune.
I would even say that the benefits of the movement are also the product of good fortune, it is seemingly not the product of particularly keen foresight.
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  #239  
Old 08-25-2007, 10:55 AM
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Default Dan Sickles, Union Savior?

The question, then was it possible for 3d Corps to effectively cover the ground from Hancocks's left, up to and including LRT?
It does look like a lot of ground to cover for one Union Corps and still be strong enough to repel a full blooded offenseive from
One can argue that although, Sickles did disobey his instructions, it does not follow that the movement itself was incorrect. Any way one looks at it, 3d Corps was concentrated to meet the Rebel attack head on rather than stretched linearly to it's limit, facing West, with the attac coming from the W and S. Sickles defeat was assured in either scenario, but it is possible to argue that they were able make a better fight of it from its more forward cockpit, concentrated rathen than stretched out facing the wrong direction.
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  #240  
Old 08-25-2007, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cw1865
The 'problem' with Lee's plan is that he's ordering Longstreet up the Emmitsburg Road which in the strictest sense leads directly into Gettysburg; but obiously Lee isn't ordering his right wing to march in front of Federal fire just to get to 'tip' of the Federal position. His attack may theoretically land at the junction of Sickles and Hancock; so Sickles may be involved in fighting.
Not knowingly. Remember the morning so-called recon that "found no Union Troops on LRT".
So Lee thought he would be attacking the Far Union Left positioned further up the road from LRT.
Of course, Sickles would still become involved in the fighting, but in what Meade considered a better position.
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