Another forgotten or overlooked figure from Gettysburg

[nbforrest]

Don't remember where I read it, but I recall that a unit was equipped with Greene rifles at Antietam but they functioned very poorly and weren't used again. Anyone know if this is true?

Respectfully

[tomh]

nbforrest,

Odd coincidence here but we are in the middle of a discussion about Greene rifles and projectiles on another forum. The greene rifle/carbine was a very unique design with the barrel rotating away from the breech on a pin below the breech. To load the weapon, the barrel would be rotated clockwise exposing the breech. The cartridge is similar in design to the british cartridge (ball at bottom of cartridge facing up, powder above ball at nose) and one would be split, removing the bullet (and felt washer if there was one) and placed in the breech. The bullet was pushed to the front of the breech by pushing the breech plug forward. Another complete cartridge was then inserted into the breech and the barrel rotated counterclockwise to lock closed. The end result would be that you had a powder charge between two bullets. On firing, the charge would force the forward bullet out of the breech and down the barrel, leaving the rear ball in the breech. To reload, the breech plug would be pushed forward and another complete cartridge inserted behind the 1st ball.

Main issues:
1. The soldier either had to carry seperate bullets for the first load or destry a perfectly good cartridge.
2. In the case of incomplete combustion, remnants of the cartridge paper could foul the breech, making loading more difficult.
3. In the case of an incomplete barrel rotation the breech would not completely lock, losing much of the propellant force and ultimately damaging the breech.

Not a great weapon, and yet another entry in the ACW Fabulous Failures category. I don't know if they were issued at Antietam/Sharpsburg, but I know they were considered problem weapons by the troops.

Later,
TomH

[ole]

I have a couple/three books on CW weapons and none mentions the Greene. How many others are out there to be uncovered?
Ole

[tomh]

ole,

Between converted flintlocks, small manufacturers (less than 200 total weapons produced) and consumer weapons pressed into service we may never really know all the types of weapons that were used. So many CS conversions were done that it is impossible to get an accurate picture. I have a converted Model 1836 martial pistol that was one of three recovered at the same time, all with identical conversion methods (a very unusual cone-in-pan conversion) and obviously done by the same gunsmith. Who he was, where he worked and when they were converted will probably never be known. All we know was that he did at least these three guns and did a really nice job of converting flint to percussion.

If you really want to get confused about the number of types used, take a look at bullets <grin>.

At least there is still plenty of room for new scholarship.

Later,
TomH

[r_moody]

There was also a Greene Rifle that was breach loading with a bolt action(the first bolt action rifle). Likely to be after Gettysburg though.

Pictures and a few notes at;
http://scard.buffnet.net/pages/signa...s/weapons.html

Rick

[tomh]

Rick,

The Greene rifle was under the 1857 patent as well and used the bullet-powder-bullet breech system. It was an underhammer bolt action instead of the rotating breech/breech plug and was determined too difficult to use for combat troops. Only 900 were purchased by the Federal Government and it is listed as a post 1865 weapon.

Hope this helps,
TomH

[ole]

Gentlemen:
I am gratified that my confidence was not misplaced.

That Greene was UGLEE wasn't it? Not pretty at all. Assuming you all ascribe to the pretty/ugly phenomenon (the Luger is pretty, the LeMat is ugly), do you suppose the soldier held the same attitude? That regardless of the shooting quality, etc., the soldier appreciated the esthetics of the piece he was carrying?

Personally, if the Greene could cut 1" groups at 200 yards, loaded easily, and fired reliably, I'd still keep it hidden until needed.

Just a thought. Ole.

[tomh]

Ole,

After playing with this thread last night I went looking at some of my favorite dealers and lo and behold Gutterman's has a greene rifle available for sale!

Take a look at http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/po...eenerifle.html for some nice photos. This one has a great patent on the barrel and is in fine condition.

BTW: Interesting thought about whether the soldiers were concerned about weapon appearances, and I disagree, I think the Lemat is a really pretty design. All in the eyes of the beholder...

Later,
TomH

[pazulick]

On 2/2/06, Manofdreds from Philadelphia wrote: "It should be mentioned that Greene was a superb engineer from NY and it was his engineering pedigree that really saved the day for the 12th corps and the whole union army. He entrenched his brigade well enough that the confederates had no idea of the numbers or in this case lack of numbers on the union side and protected his soldiers immensely thus they were able to turn back almost every attack."


First, let me say I am new to the forum and to the site, so if I breach protocol in some fashion, please let me know.

My substantive reply: Yes, General Greene had his folks dug in well, but not all the time, I don't think. I haven't been out to Gettysburg for several years or reviewed my notes recently, but my recollection is that the Pennsylvania 29th was dug in at Kulp's Hill, the bend in the fishhook, on the 1st of July, but was ordered to abandon its breastworks during the daylight hours of the 2d to try to reinforce elsewhere, at Little Roundtop. The 29th never got there, but was called back to Kulp's Hill. It then had to retake the breastworks from Confederate forces on the night of the 2d, which it did into the wee hours of the 3d of July, the final day on which the Union won the battle and Lee took off southward.

One of my family members, then Capt. Sam Zulick, was there as a regimental officer with the 29th; I think he was then third in command. What a thrill to discover his name on the 29th's monument at Kulp's Hill.

[whitworth]

Some veterans of Gettysburg never saw Pickett's Charge, including the commanding general George Meade. BG George Greene was unbelievably left out of many histories. In fact Culp's Hill was more important than Little Round Top as a defensive position, but try to convince many after 140 years.

If Little Round Top and the left flank of the AoP was so important, why did Lee send Stuart to attack the AoP's right flank on July 3? Whatever intelligence information got back to Lee on Little Round Top on July 2nd, didn't signal a major attack there. But to many, Little Round Top remains very important.