Civil War History - Gettysburg ForumGettysburg! It's not just a National Park. It's a Civil War Battlefield. For some it's historic and storied past are almost an obsession! All related discussions are welcome here!
The 4th Michigan's flag was brand new and it's commander, Col Jefferies swore to his men that he would die before that flag was captured. Well he did die for the fight of that flag. I think Wofford's Georgia brigade took it but dont have the proof just yet on it.
The 24th Michigan came very close to losing their flag, Col Morrow was captured but both flags were saved.
Colors were important to the individual unit's cohesiveness and prestige. Colors were important on the day of battle.
But in the end, the war wasn't won or lost on how many colors were captured in battle.
Does it really matter if the Confederates captured five, twenty, fifty colors at Gettysburg? It still was a defeat.
Survivors of units that lost their colors weren't sent home in disgrace. And some units at Gettysburg, that retained their colors, took horribly high casualties. One Confederate brigade suffered 20% casualties on July 3rd. Does it really matter that this brigade kept it colors.
Colors were important to the units, but is it really a satisfactory device to measure the real and final accomplishment.
In the end, the Confederate units captured far too few colors.
colors are important for many reasons, other than the obvious on the battlefield. now, they are a piece of history, men rallied and died around them. the blood of them are stained on the fabrics.
Its not about how many flags the Confederates captured, but historically many people want to know how many were captured. It is well known of Confederate flags captured at Gettysburg. Why the Union did not list their flags captured is beyond me. I went through the entire OR Vol 1 Series 27 and only found two Union regiments that admited they lost their flag. 149th Pa and the 3rd Maine. Even when we know 100% a Union regiment lost their flag there is no mention of it in any report. There are many historians and Civil War enthusiast that are curious to what Union flags were captured at Gettysburg. The Union army usually kept good records, where alot of Confederate records have been lost in history. On a historical side and for future records we are tracking down Union flags captured at Gettysburg.
As for your "In the end, the Confederate units captured too few color"
Did you find the complete listing of all Union flags captured by the Confederacy? Can you tell us how many flags were captured by the Union and Confederacy during the Civil War?
On June 1st, Gen Lee first took over as commander of the Army of Potomac which he renamed the Army of Northern Virginia. For the first 11 months (Seven days-Gettysburg) his Army captured more (In battle) men, artillery, supplies and food supplies then any General, North, South, West or East.
In 1905 the US.War Department returned 502 Confederate flags. There were still 252 flags that were "unidentified". Just that total alone is 757 flags. There are many many more Confederate flags that were not turned it to the War Department.
The biggest battles of Confederate flags captured:
Gettysburg--55 1/2 (1/2 being the 20th Nc's flag)
Franklin------42
The very first known captured Confederate flag was Col Porterfield's 25th Virginia during the West Virginia campaign. The first Army of Northern Virginia flag captured was the 5th Nc at Williamsburg.
The Confederacy did not keep records on all flags they captured during the war. Even after Gettysburg, Lee's army still took many flags even up to the end. Seeing this void, many of us are working on finding "Captured battle flags during the Civil War". One day I hope to come out with some books on this subject.
So yes, 5, 10, 15, 20 flags captured by the Confederates at Gettysburg does mean something. Regardless that they lost a "tactical" loss at Gettysburg. Strategically Lee had won the Gettysburg campaign, as many historians have pointed out.
A book I would recommend before and after Gettysburg "Retreat from Gettysburg" Lee, Logistics& the Pennsylvania Campaign
It's not about how many flags the Confederates captured to some people, but historically many people want to know how many were captured. It is well known of Confederate flags captured at Gettysburg. Why the Union did not list their flags captured is beyond me. I went through the entire OR Vol 1 Series 27 and only found two Union regiments that admited they lost their flag. 149th Pa and the 3rd Maine. Even when we know 100% a Union regiment lost their flag there is no mention of it in any report. There are many historians and Civil War enthusiast that are curious to what Union flags were captured at Gettysburg. The Union army usually kept good records, where alot of Confederate records have been lost in history. On a historical side and for future records we are tracking down Union flags captured at Gettysburg.
As for your "In the end, the Confederate units captured too few color"
Did you find the complete listing of all Union flags captured by the Confederacy? Can you tell us how many flags were captured by the Union and Confederacy during the Civil War?
On June 1st, Gen Lee first took over as commander of the Army of Potomac which he renamed the Army of Northern Virginia. For the first 11 months (Seven days-Gettysburg) his Army captured more (In battle) men, artillery, supplies and food supplies then any General, North, South, West or East.
In 1905 the US.War Department returned 502 Confederate flags. There were still 252 flags that were "unidentified". Just that total alone is 757 flags. There are many many more Confederate flags that were not turned it to the War Department.
The biggest battles of Confederate flags captured:
Gettysburg--55 1/2 (1/2 being the 20th Nc's flag)
Franklin------42
The very first known captured Confederate flag was Col Porterfield's 25th Virginia during the West Virginia campaign. The first Army of Northern Virginia flag captured was the 5th Nc at Williamsburg.
The Confederacy did not keep records on all flags they captured during the war. Even after Gettysburg, Lee's army still took many flags even up to the end. Seeing this void, many of us are working on finding "Captured battle flags during the Civil War". One day I hope to come out with some books on this subject.
So yes, 5, 10, 15, 20 flags captured by the Confederates at Gettysburg does mean something. Regardless that they lost a "tactical" loss at Gettysburg. Strategically Lee had won the Gettysburg campaign, as many historians have pointed out.
A book I would recommend before and after Gettysburg "Retreat from Gettysburg" Lee, Logistics& the Pennsylvania Campaign
Hello all, just a recap of my project. As of today, I have identified 140 Union colors, standards, guidons, presentation flags, etc, that have been captured during the war, including Gettysburg. If you wish to see if a special unit is on this, feel free to send a private message to me. To prevent copy cats, I will not post my entire list, sorry, but there a lot of people that wish to copy and claim a project like mine, but none are on this website
Wildcat, what a great project! I would at some point like to see the entire list. However, I understand and agree with youre reasons for not posting. I hope at some point you will be able to do so.
I am personally very intersted in flags and their impact on troops and others during the CW. Especally the hand made flags that went with many early units on both sides. Usually presented by the ladies of the town or county.
My favorite story is of the colors of Gen. Jo Shelby's "Iron Brigade" which were buried in the Rio Grand river when the survivors fled to Mexico rather than surrender to the Yankees. Shelby himself never did surrender, although he returned to Missouri after the war and became United States Marshall for the Western District of Missouri. He is buried at Kansas City.
Indeed. I will post once I can solidfy my report. There are several loose ends. Shelby's people crossed further down river from where I lived, but the Battle of Palmetto Ranch was much closer.
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