Shoes, Myth or Fact at Gettysburg

[M E Wolf]

Dear List Members,

I often find that when battles are engaged--it is usually 'unplanned' and more likely, during the Civil War--a happenstance.

They might plan the general area, the general tactics--however, it depends on the behavior of the other side--sometimes they fall into the 'trap' and sometimes they do not. There might be hidden things to alter the plan--such as resources and judgment of others. Not all generals command the same. With Longstreet and Jackson--they were predictable. It is those generals who waffle and never give consistant performances.

For Lee, loosing Generals to whom had been seasoned by war with Mexico, their loss would be no replacements for those 'gut feelings' and seeing in their mind what to do with what they have as well as remaining within the plan set out by Lee--the objective.

Just some thoughts.

M. E. Wolf

[whitworth]

Was it a cover for Lee's mistakes? Buford with his cavalry was in place because he knew what Confederates were coming over South Mountain, one brigade at a time and one corps at a time.
It was Pennsylvania, and Buford had the information from the scouts and spies that two corps were headed east on the Chambersburg-Gettysburg Pike. Lee only knew that Union troops were coming, but not where they were headed.
If one looks at a topographical map, one would see that Lee was coming over one narrow road from Chambersburg to Gettysburg. If the Union army got to Gettysburg first, Lee would have to fight it for the Gettysburg crossroads, as best he could. Buford fought until an infantry corps got to his position, west of Gettysburg. Buford had successfully put a cork in the bottle; Lee would need to attack, even if the original plan was not to attack.
Lee had no choice of plan. He had to fight the Army of the Potomac, before all its corps were up. Lee said so himself. He had collided with the Union army and the Confederates were unable to withdraw over one narrow road.

..."It had not been intended to deliver a general battle so far from our base unless attacked, but coming unexpectedly upon the whole Federal Army, to withdraw through the mountains with our extensive trains would have been difficult and dangerous..."

R.E. Lee
General

Lee had gotten his army into a bad situation. It had to attack before all the Federal corps arrived on the field. On July 1, no Confederate knew how quickly this could be accomplished. One day, two days, three days? Lee had no choice, but to attack. The Army of the Potomac was getting to Gettysburg too quickly. Lee had no quick way out of Adams County.
Neither Heth nor Hill had made the decision to cross from Chambersburg to Gettysburg, through the South Mountain gaps. That was Lee's decision. Once made, Lee found a withdrawal through those gaps was "difficult and dangerous" and therefore impossible. His words! Heth had to get to Gettysburg, not for shoes, but to control the roads out of Gettysburg. Lee had a narrow road and mountains at his back.

[MasonicCav]

I take the shoe "thing" with a grain of salt. Supplies such as food and other provisions would have been preferable for men who had just marched through the rain from Maryland. A crossroads junction like Gettysburg proved a more viable option for Lee to gather his Army, resupply with stores from local farms and shops in town, and then move further north to rail and road junctions that would take the Army of Northern Virginia to Harrisburg.

The closest venue for the prodution of shoes near the area of Gettysburg would be in Hanover almost 30 miles east in York County. If Gettysburg was a point of sale for these products is a matter of debate, and could only be found in old shop ledgers originating from stores in Gettysburg long since defunct after 140 years.

I think "Lee looking to resupply and codify the army at a central crossroads hub" would be a better reason for the location of the battle than simply saying "Looking for Shoes".

[M E Wolf]

Dear Whitworth and List Members;

From the pattern of which these armies were entangled in battles, skirmishes; the most recent big brew-ha-ha; was the Union Cavalry, with General Buford involved among others; spanked General JEB Stuart's Cavalry [look at "Unknown Battles forum for the details of the discussion towards the end of the series]

JEB Stuart had to get out of the dog house per se; and as 'habit' he had to make a big 'scene' per se. Thus, in return from this 'secret movement' by General Lee; to which seemingly was not shared to any of his Senior Generals, e.g. Longstreet, Stuart, Early, Hill, etc.; in addition Lee had not recovered from the loss of Stonewall; this turn of fortunes manifested before Gettysburg; it started at the Battle of Brandy Station.

And, yes Buford had spies like everybody else LOL. And, the knowledge of Stuart's previous raid in October. Unfortunately, Buford's force was shattered that he wasn't able to put the escape route of Lee's into a choke hold. Buford also did not get support as well--a flaw to which frustrated Buford--they expected cavalry to save the infantry's hide but, until General Reynolds--the infantry didn't come to save or assist Buford.

Stuart's leaving Lee blind was the due to the need for Stuart to make the headlines. He did this in other campaigns along with Stonewall and much like Mosby--was a 'dandy' and not buckled down to his business when Lee needed him most.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[cw1865]

He was certainely enthralled with doing looped-d-loops around the Union Army!

[M E Wolf]

Dear CW1865,

Yes, JEB Stuart did enjoy being a showy and regular 'pest' of the enemy.
General George Armstrong Custer was that way also. In a way; General George S. Patton, in World War II was a 'dandy' as well; if you might recall he was in the first World War I's Cavalry, changed the cavalry saber and then in tanks; did looped-de'-loops around British General Montgomery, German's Rommel and was successful in tweaking everybody's nose. [Grins] Of course young George learned these 'tactics' from Colonel John S. Mosby who drove the Union Cavalry beyond destraction in the Northern Virginia; northeastern section of Virginia, e.g. Chantilly, Manassas, Vienna, Falls Church, Fairfax, Arlington and Dumfries, Loudoun County as well--And, General JEB Stuart really liked Mosby and always showered praises on Mosby and called attention to Mosby to General Lee.

I do think General George Pickett had some 'dandy' in him as well.

Where General JEB Stuart and the CSA Cavalry like him; as well as George Custer, Kilpatrick, Pleasonton; their style was patterned under the French Cavalry influence using the Murat style of charges and harassing and attacking the flanks. Whereas, General Buford studed Dragoon tactics under General John Watts de Pevster; who advocated in making the cavalry more of a skirmish line as the new formation of a battle line; in other words--not charging in a solid mass but fewer and less 'rigid' formation mash of cavalry. Fanning out and attack weak points. By moving irraticly in skirmishing; the anticipated movement wasn't as obvious; thus frustrating to a marksman aiming for the trooper.

I think the Battle of Brandy Station, the largest Cavalry engagement to that point; started the change in battle tactics of cavalry. I think this is where General Buford left his mark on the future use of Cavalry; as his subordinate officers; Colonel to General Merritt took over Buford's position on Buford's death. Colonel Devin would raise to the rank of General and his cavalry tactics were influenced by Buford's success in extracting his Cavalry out of danger and bold moves when necessary; with Colonel Gamble--he too would earn his rank of General much later; as his past wounds and allergies caused him issues--so his influence really showed at Camp Stoneman/Giesborough Point (Bowling Air Force Base location these days); was a cavalry remount command. He trained riders and horses there. So, by time 1864 came around the Union Cavalry had changed and ammended from old tactics that were endangering lives due to weapon changes.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

[diddyriddick]

Sorry...Please see number 58

[diddyriddick]

Here is something else. The Confederates were in Gettysburg in late June. While I don't believe that there were any shoes, it is certain that these earlier Confederates would have picked the town clean if there had been.

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by diddyriddick

Here is something else. The Confederates were in Gettysburg in late June. While I don't believe that there were any shoes, it is certain that these earlier Confederates would have picked the town clean if there had been.

....and tell Heth that they had done so.

[cw1865]

Remember the question really isn't 'What's in Gettysburg?' the question is what motivates Heth to make the movement.

Gettysburg is the only place close to Heth where he could hope to get anything of value, ie. its the only place to 'go fishing' - whether he thinks the odds of finding anything useful are high is again a little on the irrelevant side.

Unless somebody higher up than Heth tells him to take and hold the road junctions at Gettysburg, Heth apparently makes the move on his own initiative and writes, after the fact, that he was looking for 'shoes' (things of value), you'll have to get the exact quote from his report....