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Civil War History - Gettysburg Forum Gettysburg! It's not just a National Park. It's a Civil War Battlefield. For some it's historic and storied past are almost an obsession! All related discussions are welcome here!

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  #11  
Old 10-09-2005, 10:04 AM
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Default Longstreet's Assault(s)

This is one of the confusing names assigned to the action at Gettysburg. On July 2nd, two of Longstreet's divisions (Hood and McLaws) assaulted the southern end of the Federal line after the fabled "countermarch" over the ridges west of town. This led to the fights at the Peach Orchard, the Stoney Hill, The Wheatfield, Devil's Den/the Triangular Field, The Slaughter Pen, The Valley of Death and Little Round Top. Longstreet later described the action as "the best three hours of fighteing done by either side during the war" (parapharse). Generally the historians describe that action as Longstreet's Assault and the action started around 4:00 PM.

On July 3rd, Longstreet's remaining division under Pickett, who was not available on the 2nd due to the fact that they were originally assigned the last position in the long CS line coming up from VA in order to protect the supply trains, was joined by the remains of Heth's Div commanded by Pettegrew after Heth's wounding (Hill's corps) and the remains of Archer's and Davis's Brigades (Hill's Corps) under the command of Gen. Isaac Trimble (officially unassigned but attached to Ewell on day 1) for the assault on the center of the Federal line on Cemetary Hill. Originally called Pickett's Charge, historians have always disputed the name since Pickett actually only commanded about 40% of the troops involved (about 4,500 of the 12,000). Efforts were made to change the name to Longstreet's Assault, but because it conflicted with the name for the 2nd day's action recent efforts have been made to call it the Pickett-Pettegrew-Trimble assualt, or PPT's Charge.

TomH
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  #12  
Old 10-11-2005, 04:10 PM
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Hey Guys,
I would agree that Picket's Charge is inaptly named.Have you guys ever read where some poeple say that many Confederates refused to make that charge?I haven't read it myself, but I have heard of it in conversation.I did see on the show Battlefield Detectives where they conducted experiments with 1863 Union weapons and came to the conclusion that 12,500 men didn't make that charge.From their firing at wooden troops I don't see how anyone crossed that field.Was that was Lee was referring to when he said if it had been supported as it should have been it would have been successful?I always took that to refer to Jeb Stuart not meeting his objective on the third day of Gettysburg.Anyway I'll appreciate any answers.Also what if Lee had just dug in on the high ground that the Confederates possessed after day 1 and hadn't attacked?What to you guys think would have happened from there?
Regards,
Ashley
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  #13  
Old 10-11-2005, 05:35 PM
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"Also what if Lee had just dug in on the high ground that the Confederates possessed after day 1 and hadn't attacked?What to you guys think would have happened from there?"

Ashley,

Meade would have been under great pressure from Washington to attack. But all Meade would have had to do is send cavalry to cut Lee's supply line. Lee could not afford to remain in one place for long -- even the largesse of the PA countryside could not maintain a static army.

Sherman was able to live off the country only by keeping on the move. Grant was able to live off the Mississippi countryside for 51 days only by keeping on the move. Lee had what -- some over 60,000 men at the end of day 1? He would have had to have thousands of wagons scouring all of Pennsylvania to feed that many men and horses.

Ole

Last edited by ole; 10-11-2005 at 05:35 PM. Reason: added quotation marks
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  #14  
Old 10-11-2005, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
"Also what if Lee had just dug in on the high ground that the Confederates possessed after day 1 and hadn't attacked?What to you guys think would have happened from there?"

Ashley,

Meade would have been under great pressure from Washington to attack. But all Meade would have had to do is send cavalry to cut Lee's supply line. Lee could not afford to remain in one place for long -- even the largesse of the PA countryside could not maintain a static army.

Sherman was able to live off the country only by keeping on the move. Grant was able to live off the Mississippi countryside for 51 days only by keeping on the move. Lee had what -- some over 60,000 men at the end of day 1? He would have had to have thousands of wagons scouring all of Pennsylvania to feed that many men and horses.

Ole
Very true. Lee was far from his base of supplies. If he had dug in he would have been surrounded and eventually forced to attack or be starved out. That would have been the worst move he could make. Once the battle at Gettysburg started, he either had to commit to pushing the AoP away or move off himself. There was no in-between move possible.

Regards,
Cash
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  #15  
Old 10-11-2005, 06:01 PM
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Default PPT's Assault

Ashley,

I hadn't heard any contentions that CS Troops refused to make the assault, but there is a recently developed view that some troops stopped advancing once they reached the post and rail fences at the Emmitsburg Road. The Battlefield Detectives crew tried to support that theory in the episode that you mentioned.

I have walked that field several times, and until you walk in their steps, you really cannot get a feel for what they were confronted with. Once leaving the relative shelter of the woods on Seminary Ridge, the troops crossed a series of low ridges and the swales between the ridges. They would quickly cross the ridge and then redress lines in the swale, where they were protected from the view of the Federal troops behind the wall. This worked for a couple of ridges until they got close to the road. At that point the guns on LRT had enfilading fire along the length of the next swale. During a real time walk with a Ranger, this was pointed out in dramatic fashion, we got into the swale and everyone took a breath, used to being out of view in the low ground. The guide then pointed out Federal artillery, sitting on the northern end of LRT, and looking at the small black holes marking the bores of these Parrot rifles certainly drove it home.

Up until the time that they reached the road, all the fences that they encountered were "worm" fences, cedar rails with no ground anchored posts. These fences were intended to control livestock grazing and were built to allow easy movement to another section of the field. When the CS troops reached these fences they were able to knock them down, preserving their lines and most of their forward momentum. At the road the fences were not only sturdy post and rail fences, but the rails were nailed in place, making them nearly impossible to knock down. The troops had to climb over these fences, redress lines, climb the fence on the other side of the road and redress again, all under the galling fire from both the infantry in front and the artillery both in front and on either flank. It isn't hard to accept that some of these troops may have simply decided that enough was enough and lay down in position, but I really don't believe that the numbers presented on BField Detectives were accurate.

Also, during the filming of that episode the firing demonstrations were done under nearly ideal conditions. No smoke, no confusion and, most of all, no-one firing back. I really believe that the results were inflated expectations on the hit ratio and effectiveness of the weapons involved.

While the series has presented some great attempts at solving unknown aspects of some of the battles, the bottom line is that they have to meet the production company's entertainment requirement and sometimes historical relevence takes a back seat. I was involved in the Antietam/Sharpsburg episode and even though the archaeology crew spent five long days in and around the Piper Orchard, our efforts ended up as the shortest segment of the show. We were able to get a much clearer picture of both the actions of the 7th Maine during their ill fated charge south of the sunken road, and more precisely locate a NC regiment on the Piper Farm. The longer broadcast element was the husband and wife team demonstrating the fact that when you are at the bottom of a swale you cannot see over the top of the ridge. Duh!

I beieve that Lee's unsupported comment refers more to two things. One, the planned diversionary attack on Culp's Hill that was supposed to draw reserves from the Union Center was completely nullified. Hours before the assault was supposed to start, the Federal Troops staged a charge of their own, recapturing the works, pushing the CS troops back down the lower hill and totally disrupting the formations for the assaulting troops. There was no need to shift Federal troops north, leaving them at the wall to repel PPT's Assault. Second, there has been quite a bit of discussion lately concerning the presence of a reserve force made up of remnants of the 3rd Corps troops involved on Day 1. Documentation is confusing, but if this was in fact a "second wave" planned for the assault, then their inactivity could have elicited that opinion from Marse Robert.

Sorry about the long rant, but you touched on one of my favorite discussion topics and places on the field.

Last comment: I brought a friend to the field a couple of days after he returned from action in Afghanistan. He is a highly trained Special Forces operative who has been in his share of hot places. After going over the particulars in PPT's Assault I asked him how he would have handled the situation. His response ... "I would have shot my officer".

Just a humble opinion,
TomH

Last edited by tomh; 10-12-2005 at 09:10 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-11-2005, 06:16 PM
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Default PPT's Assault

Ole/Cash,

I agree completely, plus the same mountains that he hid behind on the move north would now be between him and home. They would have been the perfect "anvil" to smash his army against.

TomH
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  #17  
Old 10-11-2005, 06:30 PM
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How many were in a southern regiment at the time of Gettysburg? They must have been pretty reduced from original strength. Curious how the losses mentioned above would have correlated to actual strength as a percentage.
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  #18  
Old 10-11-2005, 06:38 PM
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Default PPT's Assault

owilliams,

CS regiments here ranged from around 300 to over 900. Newer brigades like Pettigrew were larger, older ones showed the effect of years of tough fighting.

Loss figures vary from publication to publication.

Men Involved in PPT's Assault: 10,000 to almost 15,000
Losses: 3,500 to 5,000

Generally, it is reported that about 1/3 of the force was lost, the vast majority within a couple of hundred feet of Emmitsburg Road.

TomH
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2005, 09:57 PM
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Thanks Ole,
Its tough for me to find fault with anything you said.I know some Confederates suggested just letting the North attack them after day one so I wondered what other intelligent poeple thought about it.It seemed to me that the view that one battle would have won the war or made that much of a difference is wishful thinking anyway.

Tom,
That was totally awesome dude.I really enjoyed your rant from beginning to end.You answered every question I had to the 10th degree.I saw that Sharpsburg part on TV as well.I liked it because it was Civil War related but otherwise it wasn't impressive.The first time I saw that show they did Custer's last stand where they proved the Indians were armed to the teeth with rifles.That made a lot more sense than the Americans in a defensive circle where the Indians ran around in circles using primitive weapons as we killed ten times there number.Anyway your insight was very helpful and very much appreciated.
Thanks,
Ashley
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  #20  
Old 10-20-2005, 09:53 PM
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I hadn't heard any contentions that CS Troops refused to make the assault, but there is a recently developed view that some troops stopped advancing once they reached the post and rail fences at the Emmitsburg Road. The Battlefield Detectives crew tried to support that theory in the episode that you mentioned.
Up until the time that they reached the road, all the fences that they encountered were "worm" fences, cedar rails with no ground anchored posts. These fences were intended to control livestock grazing and were built to allow easy movement to another section of the field. When the CS troops reached these fences they were able to knock them down, preserving their lines and most of their forward momentum. At the road the fences were not only sturdy post and rail fences, but the rails were nailed in place, making them nearly impossible to knock down. The troops had to climb over these fences, redress lines, climb the fence on the other side of the road and redress again, all under the galling fire from both the infantry in front and the artillery both in front and on either flank. It isn't hard to accept that some of these troops may have simply decided that enough was enough and lay down in position, but I really don't believe that the numbers presented on BField Detectives were accurate.



Brockenbrough's brigade apparantly did collapse entirely before even reaching the Emmitsburg road. A large numbers of Pettigrew's and Trimble's divisions did not advance beyond the Emmittsburg Road. A number did but none reached the stone wall. Not nearly as many of Pickett's men halted at the Emmittsburg Road. That should not be seen as a critique of Pettigrew's and Trimble's people, since the stone wall was ****her to their front than it was in front of Pickett. The fence along the road was a pretty big obstacle for Pettigrew and Trimble but almost none for Pickett. Many of Pickett's guys don't even mention the fence, since apparantly the skirmishers from July 2 and 3 had torn portions of it down, and the bombardment finished it off.
The fence scenario gets overplayed. The Unsolved History show had an episode on it, and it was just plain stale.
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