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Civil War History - Gettysburg Forum Gettysburg! It's not just a National Park. It's a Civil War Battlefield. For some it's historic and storied past are almost an obsession! All related discussions are welcome here!

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  #11  
Old 08-23-2008, 06:52 PM
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http://civilwartalk.com/forums/civil...on-savior.html

Old thread that might be of interest.
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  #12  
Old 08-25-2008, 01:25 AM
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In my mind we shouldn't rate Sickles' heroism solely based on whether the movement into the Peach Orchard was wise or unwise (expressly against orders). The man 'put out' for the Union and did sacrifice for it.

In my mind, there should be a monument to him at Gettysburg....(even if he did steal the money for it)
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  #13  
Old 08-25-2008, 01:35 AM
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Simply being brave doesn't make him a hero. Particularly when his decision cost an excessive price in lives (of his troops and those sent to his aid).

Between that and the move being against orders, I'm in favor of moument to his corps, but not him.
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  #14  
Old 08-25-2008, 02:20 AM
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Sounds like fighting words. You'll find out from some previous posts that I am a 'pro-Sickles' poster....
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  #15  
Old 08-25-2008, 02:26 AM
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Well, if we ignore this battle (and to a lesser extent, Chancellorsville, where his actions were...also somewhat up for question), Sickles was a lot of fairly good things.

He was aggressive, he had guts (as an individual), and he was liked by his troops.

But he wasn't exactly a good subordinate to Meade and he was most certainly not gifted with a particularly good sense of terrain and wisdom.

The reason for the first half of that:

Okay, Devil's Den is h--- to attack. It's also h-ll to defend.

Similarly, if his corps would be in a sorry a-- position where Meade ordered it, ordering it into a position that required it to hold more ground and with both flanks in the air...wasn't a good idea.

Beyond that, I'm preparing to accept any praise you can give him. I would rate his Gettysburg performance as a F, however.

Give him the mounment somewhere on the Pennisula. Maybe Manassas/Bull Run.
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Last edited by Elennsar; 08-25-2008 at 02:30 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan_steele View Post
http://civilwartalk.com/forums/civil...on-savior.html

Old thread that might be of interest.
Sickles argues that if he took the position in line as Meade wanted he would have been over whelmed.

I do not see it for every general that saw where Sickles had put his Corps all disagreed them him on that faithful day in 1863.

The ridge was a strong position and could be defended much more easily then the position Sickles had steak out.

One point: He says could not have defend LRT but if one looks at the battle Hood did not attack the LRT. The 5 regiments that made their way up to LRT got there by happenstance not by design. If Hood had not fallen early maybe he would have fought for LRT.

Two point: I think Sickles is forgetting how many brigades were sent to reinforce his position and save the union line because he his position was over whelmed. The union would have sent those same numbers of reinforcements if he had stayed on the ridge.

Three point: The only good thing was his position seem to bottle up the confederates advance like a bottle neck which I do not think Sickles had done out of forethought. It was by chance...


Thinking Sickles was CYA in his reasoning...
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  #17  
Old 09-07-2008, 01:36 AM
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Default Sickles a hero?

Sir, having very recently read "These Honored Dead" by Thomas A. Desjardin, I do have a view of this particular matter. Without orders General Sickles moved the 3rd corps over half mile out of the line known to General Meade. As Mr. Desjardin points out, General Sickles biographer W.A.Swanburg (Sickles the Incredible) expressed the opinion of many when he wrote, if I may quote, "A commanding general might as well go fishing if his corps leaders are allowed to choose the ground of thier own liking without regard to the rest of the army. Sickles's error in command is clear as crystal". "He conspired to cover his own mistakes at Gettysburg by attacking the military behavior of his commanding general". Military honor, ethical conduct and over four thousand 3rd corps casualties, I'll post on this thread "Sickles a hero", no. My two cents.
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Last edited by mcarvercraft; 09-10-2008 at 10:06 AM. Reason: after thought
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  #18  
Old 09-07-2008, 02:40 PM
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Dear Elennsar and List Members;

Brigadier General Sickles was not on the field or, even a Brigadier General and or held rank until after both Battles of Bull Run/Manassas.

His Brigades were though were.

Name SICKLES, Daniel Edgar
Born October 20 1819, New York NY
Died May 3 1914, New York NY
Pre-War Profession Lawyer, politician, acquitted of the murder of his wife's lover.
War Service 1861 raised the New York Excelsior Brigade, September 1861 appointed Brig. Gen. of Volunteers - not confirmed by Senate, re-nominated and confirmed as of September 1861, commanded 2nd Bde/2nd Divn/III Corps in the Peninsula campaign, Seven Days, commanded 2nd Divn/III Corps at Antietam, November 1862 promoted Maj. Gen. of Volunteers, Fredericksburg, commanded III Corps at Chancellorsville, Gettysburg (w), performed special missions for Pres. Lincoln, military governor of South Carolina.
==================================================
http://www.historynet.com/daniel-sic...on-general.htm

[excerpt]
Complicating matters, it was unclear whether Sickles had any authority over these men. He called himself a general, as the head of a brigade, but the soldiers had not been sworn into the armed forces, meaning that military discipline did not officially apply. In the eyes of the law, these men were still private citizens and legally could not be forced to stay at camp under Sickles’ command.

June of 1861 saw Sickles teetering on the precipice of absolute ruin. He was in massive debt. His brigade was not fully manned and was beginning to bleed away. He was in a questionable legal position. The governor of New York, the most powerful governor in the Union, wanted Sickles’ Brigade disbanded, and the federal government was not helping. Should the Excelsior project fail, Sickles would again be ruined, would have lost his best chance at a general’s star and would face years in court to fight his creditors.
[End of excerpt-begin new excerpt]
Federalizing the troops did not, however, confirm Sickles as their leader nor did it help him with his creditors, who hounded him in camp. Only another national disaster could keep Sickles out of their clutches. When word reached Staten Island that a great battle had commenced at a creek named Bull Run, the soldiers became convinced that this would be the great battle to end the rebellion and that their military service would soon be over. Had that happened, Sickles would have returned to civilian life to face his debts. It did not. The Union army was put to flight, leaving Washington exposed to a Rebel attack. All available units were called to the defense of the capital. In the week following the Battle of Bull Run, Sickles and his regiments departed for the South. The brigade’s debts were left in the hands of Captain William Wiley, Sickles’ original partner. Finding the money to settle with the creditors consumed Wiley in the following months and nearly ruined him. Sickles offered no help, and Wiley came to despise his former friend. He was the Excelsior Brigade’s first casualty.

In the District of Columbia, under the direct command of Regular Army generals, there was no chance that the Excelsior Brigade would be disbanded or be expected to pay for its own supplies. Still, Sickles’ command of the brigade was not assured. Generals needed to be confirmed by the Senate, usually no more than a formality. Sickles, however, was not usual. The Republican majority remembered that just months earlier Sickles had opposed the party. They were possibly fearful of entrusting 5,000 soldiers to an ambitious hothead. If Sickles could murder a man in Lafayette Park, might he make rash decisions on the battlefield? If Sickles’ former political friends had withdrawn to the Confederacy, might Sickles take his brigade over to the South as well? Dislike and concern held up his confirmation as a brigadier general throughout the summer and autumn of 1861. Sickles spent much of his time in Washington and away from camp, lobbying for a vote while being drawn into the capital’s politics and intrigues.
And still, Sickles was not yet confirmed a general despite spending the winter away from his troops. As spring and the campaigning season approached, Sickles decided the best way to win a star would be to demonstrate his prowess at the head of his brigade, using positive press coverage to force the Senate’s hand. He led reconnaissance across the Potomac and prepared his men for the upcoming spring campaign that would become General George McClellan’s Peninsula campaign. Sickles was ready to win glory no matter what the Senate did.

On board the ships that would take him and his men to the Virginia peninsula, Sickles received word that the Senate finally had voted on his generalcy. They had voted not to confirm him.

At that news, Sickles’ divisional general, Joseph Hooker, removed the Excelsior Brigade’s self-styled leader from command and ordered him off the ships, since he was no longer a part of the Army. Sickles, who had recruited the brigade, who had maneuvered to get them mustered into the Army, and who had faced personal ruin in his quest to redeem himself after his fall from grace, had failed.

But he was not finished yet. He had once bypassed an obstacle with the help of the president and believed he could do so again. So Sickles spent April 1862 in Washington, reminding Lincoln of the services rendered to the administration during the Wikoff and Mrs. Lincoln speech scandal. While the Excelsior Brigade learned of war firsthand outside Yorktown and lost a quarter of its number at the Battle of Williamsburg, Sickles waited to see if the president’s influence could win him a star.

On May 13, 1862, more than a year after Sickles began recruiting eight companies, the Senate voted on his confirmation to the rank of brigadier general. Nineteen senators voted for Sickles, 18 against. He was finally a general. Reassigned to command of the Excelsior Brigade, he immediately departed for his men. He would not command the brigade on the battlefield often—only at Fair Oaks and the Seven Days’ battles. He missed Second Bull Run while in New York drumming up replacement soldiers for the brigade and was promoted to corps command before its next big battle at Chancellorsville. Sickles fell near his brigade at Gettysburg when a cannonball smashed his leg. He visited the leg after the war at the Army Medical Museum.

But for his efforts to recruit the men, the hurdles he faced in mustering them into government service, and his wrangling to command them, the Excelsior Brigade would come to be known as “Sickles’ Own.” The creation of the brigade was one of the few episodes in Sickles’ life when his ambition and respectability coincided.

[end of excerpt]
================================================== ==
Too often, there is an assumption that if someone is head of a brigade, that they are actually there with the brigade. It isn't always true.

As to consider General Sickles a hero? -- No.

Also, the fact that he disobeyed orders, how he treated friends and family; the use of newspapers to throw Meade in a bad light -- How he did things, I do not like. I appreciate his efforts on gaining memorials and the property associated with Gettysburg, for a Historical Military Memorial Park. However, I don't consider him a hero.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
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  #19  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:41 PM
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by Mcarvercraft from "These Honored Dead"
Quote:
"He conspired to cover his own mistakes at Gettysburg by attacking the military behavior of his commanding general".
I read that book, and along with other books I've read containing accounts of Sickles' actions and behavior I'd have to agree that he was not a hero. I do think he was a charismatic man and a "fair to middlin'" leader, but he put his men in one untenable position that day at Gettysburg. Maybe he hoped he would gain everlasting fame and glory if his idea would have worked out. He was somewhat of an egotistical, political general so it's not out of the realm of possibility for me to assume that glory and fame both were running through his mind at that particular time. ( "Boy if I can just pull this off then...") That's just a guess. Who knows what he was thinking? Smoking the cigar as he was being carried off the field was rather theatrical, but maybe it helped inspire his men. After the position he put them in they probably needed a little extra inspiration.


Respectfully,
Leland
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  #20  
Old 09-09-2008, 11:11 PM
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Let's don't forget Sickles hand in helping with the preservation of battlefields:
"During the decade of the 1890's, Daniel E. Sickles and other veterans in Congress successfully fought to establish the first 4 national military parks at Chickamauga and Chattanooga, Shiloh, Gettysburg and Vicksburg." Wikipedia, Dan Sickles.

When visiting these parks, remember to say thanks to Dan Sickles, et al.

--BBF
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