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It seems that one of the qualities of a successful general is his ability to learn.
When the war opened, few of the first generals had led so much as a regiment. Some learned from their mistakes. Some did not.
This was called to my attention by an old thread on another board discussing McClellan. Hadn't noticed it before, but one poster discussed McClellan's failure to grow into his position. The McClellan fired in November, 1862 was the same McClellan appointed after First Manassas. If he grew in that time, I'm not aware of it.
Contrast that with Grant. Or Sherman. Or Longstreet. Or Jackson.
Any observations?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
It seems that one of the qualities of a successful general is his ability to learn.
When the war opened, few of the first generals had led so much as a regiment. Some learned from their mistakes. Some did not.
This was called to my attention by an old thread on another board discussing McClellan. Hadn't noticed it before, but one poster discussed McClellan's failure to grow into his position. The McClellan fired in November, 1862 was the same McClellan appointed after First Manassas. If he grew in that time, I'm not aware of it.
Contrast that with Grant. Or Sherman. Or Longstreet. Or Jackson.
Any observations?
ole
Ole,
In the 1850s, the average US Army post was about 2 companies, and those were usually understrength. It was rare anything as big as a battalion/regiment (effectively the same in the organization of those days) was together in one place. The biggest force put together in one place during the 1850s was the expedition A. S. Johnston took to Utah to settle the trouble with the Mormons: the 10th Infantry, the 5th Infantry, Phelps’ Battery of the 4th Artillery and the 2nd Dragoons with some territorial militia, perhaps 2,500 men. Other than that, you'd be hard-pressed to find over 1,000 troops in one place.
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Exactly what I was getting at, Trice. Lots of the generals had served in the Mexican War, but as Lieutenants and a few Captains. Can't think of anyone during the CW as holding a higher rank during the Mexican War.
In the interim, Lee and AS Johnston, at least, reached Lt. Colonel. Higher ranks were desk-jockeys (JE Johnston, Cooper, McDowell ....) So who did and who did not demonstrate the capacity to grow into a position that virtually no one ever held?
Take, for example, Sherman. When he finally decided to seek a commission, he insisted on a regular regiment as he felt himself to be inadequate to lead a volunteer regiment. His feelings of inadequacy overwhelmed him while he was watching the Kentucky border, but his performance at Shiloh shows a marked change.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
There are schools of thought that generally believe schooling (or training) merely help (or hinder) the effective use of the innate abilities of individuals.
In that line of reasoning, more experience or better training would not, necessarily, have made McClellan a better army commander (it would more likely have made him an even better administrator)
Mcclellan was an administer and just did not have the warrior within him. No matter how much more under fire training would not change that simple fact.
He could organize an army but he could not lead one into battle...
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
In the aforementioned post, the author opined that McClellan didn't recognize that he needed to learn anything at all -- he already knew more than any man alive. Not exactly a humble beginning.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Hadn't thought of it that way, Ole, but in reading about Grant I realize that he grew considerably in knowledge and confidence throughout the war. People say "if only Grant had been in command from the beginning..." but the Grant of Belmont was certainly not the Grant of Vicksburg or Appomatox.
However, while it applies in spades to the Union side, does it apply as well to the Confederate side? To J. E. Johnston, perhaps, or Bragg, but what about to Lee or Jackson? Did they really grow much in command over the course of the war? Lee, it seems to me, made many of the same mistakes later in the war as earlier. Pickett's charge is just Malvern Hill writ large. By the end he did learn to entrench immediately, yes, but that lesson was learned by the both armies at about the same time.
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
Which is what I was looking for, timewalker. Seems that JEJ was the same guy at Bentonville as he was at 7 Pines. Drawing a contrast between Gains Mill and Petersburg for Lee is more difficult.
Any others?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Can't think of anyone during the CW as holding a higher rank during the Mexican War.
Read that Ole and first name to come to mind was Sumner.....looked it up quick, sure enough....In 1846, he was promoted to Major and fought in the Mexican War.
Your overall point is nevertheless well taken....he clearly wasn't a General!
A Learning Curve is more of an age thing. Lee and Johnston were into the fifties after a lifetime of Army experience, one would expect that they knew pretty much all they wanted to know about military service and their habits and thought processes were pretty well fixed by the CW. It would be in the younger men where the Learning Curve would be the most obvious.
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