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Knowing of your interest in this subject, I thought I'd put this information out in a seperate post.
The following act of the Alabama State Legislature is the authority for the enrollment of the "Creole Guards" of Mobile:
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AN ACT to authorize the enrollment of the Creoles of Mobile.
SECTION 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the State of Alabama in General Assembly convened, That certain persons of mixed blood, residing in the city and county of Mobile, commonly known as Creoles, be, and the same are hereby, authorized to be enrolled as militia for the defense of the city and county of Mobile, if in the opinion of the mayor of the city it is expedient.
SEC. 2. Be it further enacted, That the enrollment authorized by the first section of this act shall be made as follows, to wit: The mayor shall enroll such male Creoles between the ages of eighteen years and fifty years who wish to be enrolled. He shall then divide them into suitable companies, and appoint some discreet white man as commissioned officer to command said companies. Said companies shall be confined exclusively to the defense of the city and county of Mobile, and shall be under the command of the military authorities in the city of Mobile.
Approved November 20, 1862.
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Now, the reason this act was passed is that state law in Alabama restricted service in the Militia to white males. Without this exception, the Creoles could not serve.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
A little more for you:
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HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE GULF,
Mobile, Ala., November 7, 1863.
General SAMUEL COOPER,
Adjt. and Insp. Gen., C.S. Army, Richmond, Va.:
GENERAL: I again call your attention to my request to accept into the Confederate service the company of creoles of Mobile, because I think that perhaps the War Department is not exactly informed about the people I have reference to. When Spain ceded this territory to the United States in 1803, the creoles were guaranteed all the immunities and privileges of the citizens of the United States, and have continued to enjoy them up to this time. They have, many of them, negro blood in the degree which disqualifies other persons of negro race from the rights of citizens, but they do not stand here on the footing of negroes. They are very anxious to enter the Confederate service, and I propose to make heavy artillerists of them, for which they will be admirably qualified. Please let me hear at your earliest convenience if I may have them enrolled in a company, or in companies if I can find enough of them to make more than one company.
I am, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
DABNEY H. MAURY,
Major-General.
[First indorsement.]
ADJUTANT AND INSPECTOR GENERAL'S OFFICE,
November 20, 1863.
Respectfully submitted to the Secretary of War. An application to have a company of creoles at Mobile accepted into Confederate service.
By order, &c.:
JOHN W. RIELY,
Captain and Assistant Adjutant-General.
[Second indorsement.]
[NOVEMBER] 24, 1863.
Our position with the North and before the world will not allow the employment as armed soldiers of negroes. If these creoles can be naturally and properly discriminated from negroes, the authority may be considered as conferred; otherwise not, unless you can enlist them as "navvies" (to use the English term) or for subordinate working purposes.
J. A. S.,
Secretary.
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You note here that it is late in 1863. Lee has been beaten at Gettysburg, Vicksburg and Port Hudson have fallen, and the Mississippi flows unvexed to the sea. The Battle of Chattanooga was raging, and on the 25th Bragg would be smashed. Things were pretty bad for the Confederacy.
Yet still, despite all that, the Confederate government is unwilling to accept black people as "armed soldiers". The Confederate Secretary of War says: "Our position with the North and before the world will not allow the employment as armed soldiers of negroes." Seems pretty clear to me. Is it to you? If not, please explain why you think Secretary of War Seddon is wrong in his statement.
You will note further that Seddon is willing to have his own version of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". If the Creoles can "pass" as whites, he'll let Maury enlist them as soldiers; otherwise not.
Before you make a point of it, a "navvy" was not a soldier. The original meaning was a canal construction worker in Britain (i.e., the kind of unskilled laborer who dug ditches for a living). That is what Seddon means here.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
A little more for you:
=====
HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE GULF,
Mobile, Ala., November 7, 1863.
General SAMUEL COOPER,
Adjt. and Insp. Gen., C.S. Army, Richmond, Va.:
GENERAL: I again call your attention to my request to accept into the Confederate service the company of creoles of Mobile, because I think that perhaps the War Department is not exactly informed about the people I have reference to. When Spain ceded this territory to the United States in 1803, the creoles were guaranteed all the immunities and privileges of the citizens of the United States, and have continued to enjoy them up to this time. They have, many of them, negro blood in the degree which disqualifies other persons of negro race from the rights of citizens, but they do not stand here on the footing of negroes. They are very anxious to enter the Confederate service, and I propose to make heavy artillerists of them, for which they will be admirably qualified. Please let me hear at your earliest convenience if I may have them enrolled in a company, or in companies if I can find enough of them to make more than one company.
I am, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
DABNEY H. MAURY,
Major-General.
[First indorsement.]
ADJUTANT AND INSPECTOR GENERAL'S OFFICE,
November 20, 1863.
Respectfully submitted to the Secretary of War. An application to have a company of creoles at Mobile accepted into Confederate service.
By order, &c.:
JOHN W. RIELY,
Captain and Assistant Adjutant-General.
[Second indorsement.]
[NOVEMBER] 24, 1863.
Our position with the North and before the world will not allow the employment as armed soldiers of negroes. If these creoles can be naturally and properly discriminated from negroes, the authority may be considered as conferred; otherwise not, unless you can enlist them as "navvies" (to use the English term) or for subordinate working purposes.
J. A. S.,
Secretary.
=====
You note here that it is late in 1863. Lee has been beaten at Gettysburg, Vicksburg and Port Hudson have fallen, and the Mississippi flows unvexed to the sea. The Battle of Chattanooga was raging, and on the 25th Bragg would be smashed. Things were pretty bad for the Confederacy.
Yet still, despite all that, the Confederate government is unwilling to accept black people as "armed soldiers". The Confederate Secretary of War says: "Our position with the North and before the world will not allow the employment as armed soldiers of negroes." Seems pretty clear to me. Is it to you? If not, please explain why you think Secretary of War Seddon is wrong in his statement.
You will note further that Seddon is willing to have his own version of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". If the Creoles can "pass" as whites, he'll let Maury enlist them as soldiers; otherwise not.
Note that Seddon does not say "pass at whites."
Today racial definition is black/white...no in-betweens.
Not so back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Before you make a point of it, a "navvy" was not a soldier. The original meaning was a canal construction worker in Britain (i.e., the kind of unskilled laborer who dug ditches for a living). That is what Seddon means here.
Tim
Even so...note that Seddon uses the word "enlist."
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Today racial definition is black/white...no in-betweens.
Not so back then.
LOL. I see you are still seeking to avoid the facts.
It was the same then, just using the words "white" and "negro" instead. While they called people "octoroons" and "quadroons" and other such terms intended to indicate how many white ancestors they had, Seddon's definition is still clear: "If these creoles can be naturally and properly discriminated from negroes..." then they can be considered as "white" and used as "armed soldiers". If they cannot be "distinguished" (i.e., "pass") as "white", they cannot be.
These are very clear and explicit guidelines, given by the then-current Confederate Secretary of War to one of his Department commanders. Short of Jefferson Davis signing the paper, you just can't get higher in the Confederate chain-of-command than that -- and Seddon probably met with Davis once a day or more to discuss such matters. Yet you can't accept what Seddon says. Very, very strange.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
[quote=Battalion;84956Even so...note that Seddon uses the word "enlist."[/quote]
You seem to forget that a word can have more than one definition, Battalion. Enlist does not mean only to join a branch of the armed services of a country. I also means "to get (another's help, support, aid, etc.). Not so cut and dry as it appears when the word enlist is used. So to put Seddon's words in light of the definition, and as I do believe he was using the word, "unless you can get them to render aid as navvies or for subordinate working purposes."
__________________ "War is, at its best, barbarism." General W.T. Sherman
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." General R.E. Lee
LOL. I see you are still seeking to avoid the facts.
It was the same then, just using the words "white" and "negro" instead. While they called people "octoroons" and "quadroons" and other such terms intended to indicate how many white ancestors they had, Seddon's definition is still clear: "If these creoles can be naturally and properly discriminated from negroes..." then they can be considered as "white" and used as "armed soldiers". If they cannot be "distinguished" (i.e., "pass") as "white", they cannot be.
These are very clear and explicit guidelines, given by the then-current Confederate Secretary of War to one of his Department commanders. Short of Jefferson Davis signing the paper, you just can't get higher in the Confederate chain-of-command than that -- and Seddon probably met with Davis once a day or more to discuss such matters. Yet you can't accept what Seddon says. Very, very strange.
Tim
Whatever the case...Martial Law was declared for Mobile and surrounding country on March 23, 1862. State militia units would be under Confederate command from that date to the end of the war.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Whatever the case...Martial Law was declared for Mobile and surrounding country on March 23, 1862. State militia units would be under Confederate command from that date to the end of the war.
Source please?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Whatever the case...Martial Law was declared for Mobile and surrounding country on March 23, 1862. State militia units would be under Confederate command from that date to the end of the war.
Suppose the Confederate authorities simply refused to recognize them? What then?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
"RICHMOND, VA., March 23, 1862.
Maj. Gen. SAMUEL JONES, Mobile:
The President desires that you proclaim martial law in his name over Mobile and the surrounding country.
J. P. BENJAMIN, Secretary of War."
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 04-20-2008 at 07:32 PM.
Whatever the case...Martial Law was declared for Mobile and surrounding country on March 23, 1862. State militia units would be under Confederate command from that date to the end of the war.
Reference to the local declaration of martial law is on page 2, with footnotes to #11 & 12 found on page 9.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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Mobile and the Creole Guards 
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