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For your convenience, here is the complete text of the order I was referring to in the other thread:
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O.R.--SERIES I--VOLUME L/1 [S# 105]
Union And Confederate Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating To Operations On The Pacific Coast, January 1, 1861, To June 30, 1862.(*)--# 21
HDQRS. SECOND REGIMENT TEXAS MOUNTED RIFLES,
Mesilla, March 20, 1862.
Captain HELM,
Commanding Arizona Guards :
SIR: I learn from Lieut. J. J. Jackson that the Indians have been in to your post for the purpose of making a treaty. The Congress of the Confederate States has passed a law declaring extermination to all hostile Indians. You will therefore use all means to persuade the Apaches or any tribe to come in for the purpose of making peace, and when you get them together kill all the grown Indians and take the children prisoners and sell them to defray the expense of killing the Indians. Buy whisky and such other goods as may be necessary for the Indians and I will order vouchers given to cover the amount expended. Leave nothing undone to insure success, and have a sufficient number of men around to allow no Indian to escape. Say nothing of your orders until the time arrives, and be cautious how you let the Mexicans know it. If you can't trust them send to Captain Aycock, at this place, and he will send thirty men from his company--but use the Mexicans if they can be trusted, as bringing troops from here might excite suspicion with the Indians. To your judgment I intrust this important matter and look to you for success against these cursed pests who have already murdered over 100 men in this Territory.
I am, &c., yours, with great respect,
JOHN R. BAYLOR,
Colonel Commanding Second Regiment Texas Mounted Rifles.
=====
You called my post a "balderdash lie". It appears you are once again, trying to pass a deception off. But if not, please explain where I lied about anything here. And if you can't retract all the crud you are posting and admit your bad practice to the Forum.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
In case you are looking for a little more on Baylor's order, here's a letter supporting Baylor from the Confederate delegate from the Arizona territory:
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O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XV [S# 21]
Confederate Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating To Operations In West Florida, Southern Alabama, Southern Mississippi, And Louisiana From May 12, 1862, To May 14, 1863: And In Texas, New Mexico, And Arizona From September 20, 1862, To May 14, 1863.--#9
RICHMOND, January 10, 1863.
DEAR SIR: My attention having been invited to an order now on file purporting to have been issued by Col. John R. Baylor, while in Arizona, relative to the extermination of certain Apache Indians,(*) the effect whereof having been seriously to complicate the relations of that officer with this Government, I feel it but an act of justice toward one whom I should deplore to see condemned without at least a hearing to submit a brief statement in his justification.
Colonel Baylor has never held any commission in the Confederate States service other than that of lieutenant-colonel Texas Mounted Rifles. At the date of said order he was not acting under or by virtue of such commission. It was likewise antecedent to notice of his appointment as Governor of Arizona.
For several months prior to the issuance of said order it was currently believed in that Territory, that extermination of the hostile savages was the publicly declared policy of this Government. It was so published in sundry newspapers there received, which then constituted the only medium of information in that remote region of the public acts of the Confederate Government. At this time these Indians were actually exterminating the white population of Arizona. Treaties were successively made and broken by them for the mere sake of presents usually distributed on such occasions. Their policy was to omit no opportunity to plunder and massacre. They had without provocation desolated nearly the entire Territory. Hundreds of our best citizens had been wantonly put to death during the previous year by every species of torture their fiendish ingenuity could devise. They spared neither age, sex, nor condition. They occupied the mountain fastnesses of the Sierra Madre, whither no troops could possibly follow. They could only be dislodged by means of the stratagem indicated in Colonel Baylor's order. They were better armed than our own soldiery. They defied chastisement. It became necessary for the white population either to abandon the country or extirpate the Indians. Humanity to them was but incentive to greater atrocity. Every instance of mercy toward the perfidious Apache had cost scores of valuable lives. Existing circumstances demanded immediate action. Extermination seemed to imply that the ends justified the means to be employed. All ordinary means had failed. Extraordinary measures were employed as a dernier ressort.
It was under circumstances such as these that Baylor appears to have issued this order. Reference thereto proves it to have been predicated upon the supposed Indian policy of the General Government. What less could he have done under the circumstances? What other measures could have been devised that had not already proven futile? The commonest instincts of necessity and self preservation would apparently of themselves have prompted such a course. Extermination of the whites had already been proclaimed by the savage foe. They neither asked nor expected mercy. When tendered, they scorned it. Pacification was an impossibility. In yielding to a supervening necessity, Colonel Baylor innocently believed himself likewise performing a public duty.
With reference to that clause in his order directing the women and children to be sold into slavery, I can only say that it has been the unvarying custom of the country from the time of the Spanish colonists down to the present day; and I cannot recollect a single instance wherein Indian captives have ever been set free by the people of that country.. In Mexico the long-continued practice had acquired the force of law. The usage was recognized and guaranteed by treaty between the United States and Mexico. From this custom originated the peonage system of New Spain and Mexico and that admixture of the European and Indian races which for nearly three centuries has been slowly but gradually absorbing and civilizing the once powerful aboriginal tribes of Spanish America. Captive Indian women and children are reckoned in the same caste as peons, perform similar duties, and are treated with moderation and humanity. This state of servitude, it would naturally seem, is infinitely preferable to the only other alternative of leaving them to perish of starvation and exposure among the mountains and deserts, and is certainly characterized by none of that atrocity and barbarity which Colonel Baylor's order might seem to imply in the judgment of those not conversant with the circumstances under which t was issued.
Trusting this brief explanation may at least serve to mitigate the severity of opprobrium against a tried, trusty, and efficient public servant, I have the honor to remain, respectfully, your obedient servant,
M. H. McWILLIE,
Delegate from Arizona.
=====
I took the liberty of highlighting some pertinent sections for you.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
When word of Baylor's order got back to Richmond, there was consternation in the Confederate War Department:
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O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XV [S# 21]
Confederate Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating To Operations In West Florida, Southern Alabama, Southern Mississippi, And Louisiana From May 12, 1862, To May 14, 1863: And In Texas, New Mexico, And Arizona From September 20, 1862, To May 14, 1863.--#6
WAR DEPARTMENT, C, S. A.,
Richmond, Va., November 7, 1862.
Maj. Gen. J. B. MAGRUDER,
Commanding, &c. :
SIR: I have the honor to invite your attention to the inclosed copies of papers filed in this office,(*) and request you to communicate with Colonel Baylor, and inform him, in consequence of his order with regard to the Indians, that the authority to raise troops granted him by the Department is revoked. The authority was to raise troops in Arizona Territory, and if deemed necessary it may be conferred on some other person. You will proceed as soon as practicable to take such steps as may be necessary to recover the Territory of Arizona. You will also inform Colonel Baylor that the President desires a report from him in reference to the inclosed order.
Your obedient servant,
G. W. RANDOLPH,
Secretary of War.
=====
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Here's a good part of Baylor's report, which clearly shows that he was serious in his ideas. His only regret seems to be that the order was made public.
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O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XV [S# 21]
Confederate Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating To Operations In West Florida, Southern Alabama, Southern Mississippi, And Louisiana From May 12, 1862, To May 14, 1863: And In Texas, New Mexico, And Arizona From September 20, 1862, To May 14, 1863.--#8
HOUSTON, TEX., December 29, 1862.
Maj. Gen. J. B. MAGRUDER,
Commanding District of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona:
GENERAL: In compliance with your instructions I have the honor to submit the following remarks in justification of an order issued by me several months ago for the extermination of a party of Apache Indians in the Territory of Arizona :
...I respectfully request that it be sent to His Excellency the President, to enable him to judge whether there is not some cause for the bitter feelings I, in common with the people of our frontier, entertain toward the Indians. As I write there is now in the city of Houston a young lady from whose lips you can hear a tale of Indian atrocities which she herself witnessed, wherein a lady of respectability was the victim of the most deliberate and fiendish cruelty, which is but one of scores of similar outrages that have desolated the homes of my friends and brother frontiersmen for years.
...
The question now presents itself as to what will be the policy of our Government toward the Indians in such exposed sections as Arizona. Experience has demonstrated that since the days of the Spanish Government in Mexico the people there have relied upon the treaties with the Indians. The result has been that all Northern Mexico, that once teemed with inhabitants and with millions of stock, is now a desert, in consequence of Indian depredations following broken Indian treaties. If the Confederate Government adopts the policy of making treaties and endeavors to purchase peace and affords no more adequate protection from Indians than the Government of the United States has afforded on the frontier of this State and in Arizona the result will be that the citizens there will be reduced to the condition of stock raisers and herders for the benefit of the Indian tribes alone.
Arizona has been kept in poverty by Indian depredations. Not a cow, sheep, or horse can be raised there now except by being herded day and night. As the Indians there live almost exclusively by stealing, depredations are a daily occurrence, and the people are kept poor from the want of protection; Treaty after treaty has been made and broken, and the general belief among the people is that extermination of the grown Indians and making slaves of the children is the only remedy. This system has been practiced in New Mexico. There is not a family of wealth in that country but has Indian slaves derived from that source. In fact so popular is this system of civilizing the Indian that there have been several efforts made to pass a law in the New Mexican Legislature making all Indians taken prisoners slaves for life. It was a knowledge of this custom among the people of Arizona that to some extent induced me to give the order that has been the cause of complaint against me. I must acknowledge that, a firm believer in the civilizing effects of the system of slavery as regards the African race, I cannot appreciate as it may possibly merit the sympathy that would consider the extension of that system to the youth of the Indian race a measure deserving of rebuke. I must further acknowledge the possession of no sympathy whatever for the adults, whose highest ambition is the successful prosecution daily and nightly of wholesale robbery and unsparing murder, accompanied by traits of fiendish cruelty and scenes of appalling horror that the pen cannot depict nor the imagination conceive.
As Texas and Arizona are the only portions of our youthful Confederacy that will suffer from Indian depredations and atrocities it is a matter of vital importance to them what policy will be decisively adopted by our Government toward the perpetrators of these villainies. I risk nothing in asserting that this State suffers a loss of five millions of dollars annually attributable to Indian depredations alone, and the fact is evident that heretofore the Government was either unable or unwilling to protect our people. The result of this has been that the frontier counties of this State have been almost entirely abandoned, and lands can now be purchased there for 50 cents per acre that could not be purchased for $10 an acre six years ago. In fact our frontier settlers are fast becoming for the Indians just what the Mexicans are.
As the Indians are encouraged by our enemies in Kansas, who have nearly half the Cherokees, Creeks, Seminoles, and other smaller tribes under their control, in addition to the Northern Comanches and Kiowas, if some more effectual means of protection are not adopted it is useless talk of maintaining our frontiers. If the Government had the combined wealth of the world it could not purchase peace with the Indians, and in my humble opinion it would be far cheaper to board the savages (were that possible)at first-class hotels than to continue the reservation, feeding, paint, and blanket system longer, and one of the governing motives of the frontier counties of Texas--which poll a majority of the votes in the State--in joining the secession movement was the hope and belief that our new Government would drop the old "peace-purchasing" system with the Indians and adopt the extermination policy.
I have no hesitation in stating that the order referred to was not intended for publication, nor did I suppose that it would be paraded before the country as it has been by the malice of those who entertain no good feeling toward me. Such an order excites no surprise in Arizona or Texas, while it may not read well in Richmond. Still I do not deem it consistent with my opinions and feelings on the subject of Indians and Indian policy to retract or disavow a word of the order referred to. While I sincerely regret that it has been viewed in such a light by His Excellency the President as to induce him to deprive me of the command of the brave men, most of them my old frontier comrades whom I was prepared to lead to battle against both Abolition and savage foe, yet I cannot alter the convictions and feelings of a life-time. I can still do my country some service should my State be invaded, and in that hour Texans, I know, will not refuse me a place in their ranks to meet and exterminate a foe hardly less cruel and remorseless than the Comanche or the Apache.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
JNO. R. BAYLOR,
=====
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
And here we have the endorsements on Baylor's report as it works its' way up the chain of command to President Davis in Richmond:
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O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XV [S# 21]
Confederate Correspondence, Orders, And Returns Relating To Operations In West Florida, Southern Alabama, Southern Mississippi, And Louisiana From May 12, 1862, To May 14, 1863: And In Texas, New Mexico, And Arizona From September 20, 1862, To May 14, 1863.--#8
HEADQUARTERS DISTRICT OF TEXAS, &c.,
February 6, 1863.
Without expressing any opinion as to the policy or propriety of Governor Baylor's letter, I testify with pleasure to his devoted gallantry at the recapture of Galveston, where he served as a private of artillery in the most exposed and dangerous position and rendered most important services, and I respectfully but earnestly recommend him as the most suitable officer for the command of the troops raised by him for Arizona and known as the Arizona Brigade.
I beg leave to ask a perusal by the Secretary of War of the within statement. Colonel O'Bannon informed me that he gave the information to Governor Baylor that our Congress had passed laws for the extermination of these Indians, whom I happen to know well as being not better than wild beasts and totally unworthy of sympathy.
J. BANKHEAD MAGRUDER,
Major-General, Commanding.
ADJUTANT AND INSPECTOR GENERAL'S OFFICE,
March 24, 1863.
Respectfully submitted to the Secretary of War.
H. L. CLAY,
Assistant Adjutant-General.
MARCH 29, 1863.
Respectfully submitted to the President for information.
J. A. SEDDON,
Secretary.
SECRETARY OF WAR: This letter requires attention. It is an avowal of an infamous crime and the assertion of what should not be true in relation to troops in Texas, &c.
J.D.
=====
I particularly like that last one from Jefferson Davis. I highlighted it in red so you wouldn't miss it.
Now please explain this "balderdash lie" you claim I made -- or just be a man and apologize for the deception you are trying to pull off.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
In case you are looking for a little more on Baylor's order, here's a letter supporting Baylor from the Confederate delegate from the Arizona territory:
=====
O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XV [S# 21]
....
RICHMOND, January 10, 1863.
DEAR SIR: My attention having been invited to an order now on file purporting to have been issued by Col. John R. Baylor, while in Arizona, relative to the extermination of certain Apache Indians,(*) the effect whereof having been seriously to complicate the relations of that officer with this Government, I feel it but an act of justice toward one whom I should deplore to see condemned without at least a hearing to submit a brief statement in his justification.
Colonel Baylor has never held any commission in the Confederate States service other than that of lieutenant-colonel Texas Mounted Rifles. At the date of said order he was not acting under or by virtue of such commission. It was likewise antecedent to notice of his appointment as Governor of Arizona.
For several months prior to the issuance of said order it was currently believed in that Territory, that extermination of the hostile savages was the publicly declared policy of this Government. It was so published in sundry newspapers there received, which then constituted the only medium of information in that remote region of the public acts of the Confederate Government.
.... It was under circumstances such as these that Baylor appears to have issued this order.
....
=====
I took the liberty of highlighting some pertinent sections for you.
Tim
No such policy was ever approved or issued by the Confederate government.
It was Baylor's invention-
"The Congress of the Confederate States has passed a law declaring extermination to all hostile Indians." (Baylor letter, 20 March 1862)
Baylor lied...and no doubt was the source of the "publicly declared policy of this Government" as known in the Arizona territory.
No such law was ever passed.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Looks to me like Tim has supported precisely what he earlier offered....and which you called a lie.
Admit it and apologize. Don't try and deflect and dig in deeper.
Cedarstripper
Apologize he--
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
No such policy was ever approved or issued by the Confederate government.
It was Baylor's invention-
"The Congress of the Confederate States has passed a law declaring extermination to all hostile Indians." (Baylor letter, 20 March 1862)
Baylor lied...and no doubt was the source of the "publicly declared policy of this Government" as known in the Arizona territory.
No such law was ever passed.
Apparently you didn't bother reading or understanding what I posted: all of which comes straight out of Confederate records from the war.
1) I said Baylor issued the order. You said this was a lie. You are wrong; you know it; you would admit it and apologize if you were an upright man.
2) If you read the posts in this thread completely -- as you obviously did not bother to do -- you would notice that Confederate General Magruder himself told us: "Colonel O'Bannon informed me that he gave the information to Governor Baylor that our Congress had passed laws for the extermination of these Indians, whom I happen to know well as being not better than wild beasts and totally unworthy of sympathy." Yet you blame Baylor, proving you have no concern for the truth and are just looking for a way to avoid your own responsibility.
3) Again, had you bothered to actually read and understand the posts before bothering us with your assault on Baylor, you would have read this passage in the letter of the Confederate Congress Arizona delegate: "For several months prior to the issuance of said order it was currently believed in that Territory, that extermination of the hostile savages was the publicly declared policy of this Government. It was so published in sundry newspapers there received, which then constituted the only medium of information in that remote region of the public acts of the Confederate Government." It is in the very post you replied to, quoted back in your own message. I highlighted it so you would not miss it; somehow you did. Just another example of the shoddy postings you put up, and your frantic scrambling to avoid admitting you were wrong.
4) Quite obviously this was not a law passed by the Confederate government, and I never said it was. I merely pointed out that Baylor, acting as military Governor for the territory of Arizona, had issued the order to his troops. You said this was a lie. You certainly know for sure what the facts are now, and you would retract and apologize if you were an upright man.
5) I posted to you information showing that the government in Richmond was upset with Baylor's order, and that Jefferson Davis was adamant about it. Just as I posted information about Baylor's defense of his policy, and of his subsequent election to the Confederate Congress by supporters in Texas. Clearly your claim that I was lying about something here is false, and you know it. An honest man would apologize. A mudslinging spin artist would not. Which one are you? Your next post will confirm everyone here in their knowledge of what you are.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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Confederate Colonel Baylor & the Apaches 
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