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[quote=Battalion;83727]United States calls for troops while under the draft (passed March 1863):
Various calls 1863 to Feb 1864........700,000
July 1864.....................................500,000
December 1864.............................300,000
Actual number supplied 1863-64
Volunteers...........................1,077,000
Conscripts..............................169,000
Substitutes for Conscripts...........86,000
Conscripts (failed to report).......161,000
Total...................................1,493,000
They were in the same situation as the Confederates.
If they didn't volunteer...they would be drafted.[quote]
To begin with, this shows you do not know the difference between a draft and universal conscription.
If a man in the North did not volunteer, his chance of being drafted was fairly small. A draft is a lottery, and luck -- good or bad -- determined whether or not a man would be required to serve. If drafted, he might fail the physical and be released. He might find and pay a substitute (for a while anyway; the use of substitutes was eventually banned in the US during the war -- which is why the number of draftees actually serving goes up at the end of 1864.)
If a man in the South did not volunteer, he was conscripted. The only way around this was by exemption under the law or substitution (which was roundly protested as "rich man's war, poor man's fight", just as the use of substitutes in the North was).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Confederate Army
Total (1861-65)........................750,000-1,000,000
Conscripts (Apr.1862-1865).........................82,000
Absolute balderdash.
Here you say there were only 82,000 Confederate conscripts. That is for the entire war, apparently, from all of the Confederate states. That is what you mean, right?
Yet on February 9, 1864 Secretary of War Seddon received a report giving these numbers:
Total put in service by conscription
42,976 VIRGINIA
20,721 NORTH CAROLINA
18,254 SOUTH CAROLINA
31,157 GEORGIA
======
113,108
So if the Confederate Bureau of Conscription believed it had put into service 113,108 men at that point (numbers generally reflect November 1863) in just four states, why are you telling us they were at only 82,000 by 1865? Would you like to explain that clearly for us?
Note that this also does not seem to include the "Volunteers" who had their service conscripted by extension in 1862 when the Confederacy passed the Conscription Act.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Here you say there were only 82,000 Confederate conscripts. That is for the entire war, apparently, from all of the Confederate states. That is what you mean, right?
The report was for the period April 1862 (beginning of conscription) to February 1865 (last report from Conscript Bureau).
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Yet on February 9, 1864 Secretary of War Seddon received a report giving these numbers:
Total put in service by conscription
42,976 VIRGINIA
20,721 NORTH CAROLINA
18,254 SOUTH CAROLINA
31,157 GEORGIA
======
113,108
So if the Confederate Bureau of Conscription believed it had put into service 113,108 men at that point (numbers generally reflect November 1863) in just four states, why are you telling us they were at only 82,000 by 1865? Would you like to explain that clearly for us?
Note that this also does not seem to include the "Volunteers" who had their service conscripted by extension in 1862 when the Confederacy passed the Conscription Act.
Tim
Those are estimates...and assumes there are no volunteers after April 1862-
My numbers are from the Bureau of Conscription. They are real numbers...not estimates.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Various calls 1863 to Feb 1864........700,000
July 1864.....................................500,000
December 1864.............................300,000
Actual number supplied 1863-64
Volunteers...........................1,077,000
Conscripts..............................169,000
Substitutes for Conscripts...........86,000
Conscripts (failed to report).......161,000
Total...................................1,493,000
They were in the same situation as the Confederates.
If they didn't volunteer...they would be drafted.
To begin with, this shows you do not know the difference between a draft and universal conscription.
If a man in the North did not volunteer, his chance of being drafted was fairly small.
If the 1,077,000 facing the draft had not volunteered ...then how many more would have been drafted?
1,077,000 perhaps?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
If a man in the South did not volunteer, he was conscripted. The only way around this was by exemption under the law or substitution (which was roundly protested as "rich man's war, poor man's fight", just as the use of substitutes in the North was).
It is well known that more of the male population of the South was required to serve than those in the North...but how much more?-
CSA
Army
750,000 / 6,000,000* = 12.5%
or
1,000,000 / 6,000,000* = 16.7%
*5,500,000 (11 states) + 500,000 from border states.
USA
Army
2,750,000 / 21,500,000 = 12.8%
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
It is well known that more of the male population of the South was required to serve than those in the North...but how much more?-
CSA
Army
750,000 / 6,000,000* = 12.5%
or
1,000,000 / 6,000,000* = 16.7%
*5,500,000 (11 states) + 500,000 from border states.
USA
Army
2,750,000 / 21,500,000 = 12.8%
This is, of course, more "fun with numbers" for those who feel they must distort everything to glorify the South. But you already know that.
The 11 states that seceded did not have a population of 5,500,000 -- unless you subscribe to the belief that the 3.6 million or so Black people living there should not be counted as people. Is that your position? I happen to feel those Black people do count.
And so we see your dishonest playing with numbers above. The population of the 11 Confederate states in the 1860 Census was not 5.5 million -- it was 9,103.332. You know this, as do many others, so why bother to practice this little deceit?
Very simply: so you can claim the Confederacy did something remarkable when you know the numbers you are presenting are false. Balderdash, trying to pull off a humbug like that.
So what we come to, really, is that the Confederate used less than you claim, a lower percentage than the Union -- and you know the claim you make is false before you start. Why continue to destroy your own credibility this way?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
When using census figures for military comparisons, they ought to be limited to males of military age. Then one needs to factor in the difference in the range of years considered military age.
Statistics can be made to say whatever one wants them to say.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
This is, of course, more "fun with numbers" for those who feel they must distort everything to glorify the South. But you already know that.
The 11 states that seceded did not have a population of 5,500,000 -- unless you subscribe to the belief that the 3.6 million or so Black people living there should not be counted as people. Is that your position? I happen to feel those Black people do count.
The military of both USA and CSA was raised primarily from the white population. If you add the 3.6 million blacks to the 5.5 mil this will weaken your argument even more...or are you claiming there were 100,000 black Confederate soldiers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
And so we see your dishonest playing with numbers above. The population of the 11 Confederate states in the 1860 Census was not 5.5 million -- it was 9,103.332. You know this, as do many others, so why bother to practice this little deceit?
See previous answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Very simply: so you can claim the Confederacy did something remarkable when you know the numbers you are presenting are false. Balderdash, trying to pull off a humbug like that.
See previous answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
So what we come to, really, is that the Confederate used less than you claim, a lower percentage than the Union -- and you know the claim you make is false before you start. Why continue to destroy your own credibility this way?
Tim
Are you on drugs?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
When using census figures for military comparisons, they ought to be limited to males of military age. Then one needs to factor in the difference in the range of years considered military age.
Statistics can be made to say whatever one wants them to say.
ole
The ratio between the two will be constant.
Number reduced to male population-
CSA Army
750,000 / 3,000,000* = 25%
or
1,000,000 / 3,000,000* = 33.3%
*2,750,000 (11 states) + 250,000 from border states.
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Back to the real purpose of the thread
(before it was thrown off by Trice...-who was not corrected by the moderator...-which moderator has lately been a stickler for staying on thread topic..except for this one)-
EXECUTIVE MANSION,
Washington, February 7, 1865.
Lieutenant-Colonel GLENN [120th USCT],
Commanding Post at Henderson, Ky.:
Complaint is made to me that you are forcing negroes into the military service, and even torturing them—riding them on rails, and the like—to extort their consent. I hope this may be a mistake.
The like must not be done by you or any one under you. You must not force negroes any more than white men. Answer me on this. [answer not found]
A. LINCOLN.
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
"Back to the real purpose of the thread (before it was thrown off by Trice...-who was not corrected by the moderator...-which moderator has lately been a stickler for staying on thread topic...except for this one)-
Battalion, this thread has not been on topic since you opened it.
The title of this thread is:
The USCT(United States Colored Troops)...How many were Volunteers?
I, for one, am still waiting for you to provide the answer to that question.
Now, if you don't have the answer, what was the purpose of this thread?
Maybe it would have made more sense if you had instead entitled your thread:
The USCT(United States Colored Troops)...How many were Drafted?
From what I have seen, you have provided evidence that some of the USCT was made up of draftees.
Maybe you should have been a bit more clear on what you were actually trying to say.
IMHO,
Unionblue
PS How many of the USCT WERE Volunteers?
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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