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"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Organized at Camp William Penn, near Philadelphia, Pa., July 28 to September 12, 1863.
Well over half is either a draftee or a substitute:
So? A substitute is not a draftee. He is paid by someone else to take his place, a task he took on voluntarily. In all likelihood, the man drafted was white, and hired a colored substitute. All you are trying to do is to muddy the waters. Isn't that right?
My guess would be you got these figures, directly or indirectly, from Strike the Blow for Freedom, The 6th United States Colored Infantry in the Civil War, by James M. Paradis. That grew out of a graduate project he did, and he uses most of the same sources the website you are referring to uses. If so, you probably already know that only 31% of the regiment was draftees, while 43% were volunteers and 26% paid substitutes. Yet you try to mislead the readers of your posts into thinking that more than half the regiment was draftees. Why try to deceive people like that?
We can also note that the same website also looks at the 3rd USCT in similar detail. There seem to be either none or very few draftees in that regiment, organized at the same time at the same place as the 6th USCT (Summer, 1863). Why give us only one of the two regiments when you clearly know about both? Could it be you are trying to hide what you don't like, and exagerate what supports your case?
This is just typical evasion from you: pick some isolated thing, make some vague and misleading comment about it, and leave the real issue unexplained and unanswered.
To answer this attempt at diversion, for example, we might point to the earlier regiments of colored troops, like the 1st and 2nd Louisiana Native Guards formed in 1862, when there was no draft: 0% would be draftees. What does either isolated situation prove about the overall picture? Nothing. But you know that, and are simply trying to avoid a clear answer because you understand that you have no good case.
For the fourth time: Once again: there were roughly 186,000 officers and men in the USCT. Some 179,000 of them are considered to have been Black people. Roughly 6% of all soldiers who served in the US Army in the Civil War were draftees (as opposed to the roughly 100% of the Confederates who were subject to the Conscription law applied to them). Now how many of the USCT do *you* claim were draftees?
Don't avoid this. Don't post some vague quote. Give us a clear and unequivocal statement of what *YOU* mean, in your own words.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Once again: there were roughly 186,000 officers and men in the USCT. Some 179,000 of them are considered to have been Black people. Roughly 6% of all soldiers who served in the US Army in the Civil War were draftees (as opposed to the roughly 100% of the Confederates who were subject to the Conscription law applied to them).
Key words- 'subject to'
You seem to be forgetting the United States conscript law of March 1863.
Claiming those drafted as 6% on one side and 100% on the other is a gross misrepresentation.
At least 90% of those under arms on both sides were subject to conscription.
There is information about the number of Confederate troops that were conscripted (it wasn't 100%) so why don't you look it up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Now how many of the USCT do *you* claim were draftees?
Don't avoid this. Don't post some vague quote. Give us a clear and unequivocal statement of what *YOU* mean, in your own words.
I raised the question...haven't made any claim.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 03-27-2008 at 11:54 AM.
My guess would be you got these figures, directly or indirectly, from Strike the Blow for Freedom, The 6th United States Colored Infantry in the Civil War, by James M. Paradis. That grew out of a graduate project he did, and he uses most of the same sources the website you are referring to uses. If so, you probably already know that only 31% of the regiment was draftees, while 43% were volunteers and 26% paid substitutes. Yet you try to mislead the readers of your posts into thinking that more than half the regiment was draftees. Why try to deceive people like that?
We can also note that the same website also looks at the 3rd USCT in similar detail. There seem to be either none or very few draftees in that regiment, organized at the same time at the same place as the 6th USCT (Summer, 1863). Why give us only one of the two regiments when you clearly know about both? Could it be you are trying to hide what you don't like, and exagerate what supports your case?
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
You seem to be forgetting the United States conscript law of March 1863.
Claiming those drafted as 6% on one side and 100% on the other is a gross misrepresentation.
At least 90% of those under arms on both sides were subject to conscription.
There is information about the number of Confederate troops that were conscripted (it wasn't 100%) so why don't you look it up?
No, this is what is known as a deliberate attempt to avoid the truth on your part.
When the Confederate Congress passed their conscription law in early 1862 and President Davis signed it, they deliberately extended the term of all "volunteers". The "volunteer" had no say in the matter -- and there were no exemptions for people who might say they have already served their term: they could be conscripted as soon as they were out. That means that essentially all Confederate "volunteers" were conscripted in 1862. So yes, near 100% conscription.
The reason for this, of course, is also well known: the Confederates tried all the same methods the Union tried to encourage volunteers -- and failed to gain enough men. Thus they passed a conscription law to take what they needed. This law went into effect on April 1, 1862 and immediately conscripted all men serving in the Confederate Army, as well as all the new men the Confederates chose to grab.
No such thing ever happened in the Union Army. Individuals and units were routinely mustered out when their volunteer term expired. The government instead tried many methods to convince them to re-up: furloughs, bonuses, etc. Isn't that the truth? And aren't you deliberately trying to deny this truth that has been explained to you often before?
And yes, only about 6% of the entire Union Army was composed of drafted men. The rest were not drafted.
The Union preferred to use inducements to fill their ranks, with the stick of the draft reserved for when the quotas were not met. In general, this was successful until mid-1863, and still provided most of the troops all the way to the end of the war.
The Confederates -- unable to get enough men by inducements -- used near-universal conscription as their stick, and beat men with it on a constant basis from April 1862 to the end of the war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
I raised the question...haven't made any claim.
So you just posted all this dreck to waste time, then? Your only idea is to make a lot of noise about USCT, and you have nothing to back it up?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
No, this is what is known as a deliberate attempt to avoid the truth on your part.
When the Confederate Congress passed their conscription law in early 1862 and President Davis signed it, they deliberately extended the term of all "volunteers". The "volunteer" had no say in the matter -- and there were no exemptions for people who might say they have already served their term: they could be conscripted as soon as they were out. That means that essentially all Confederate "volunteers" were conscripted in 1862. So yes, near 100% conscription.
The reason for this, of course, is also well known: the Confederates tried all the same methods the Union tried to encourage volunteers -- and failed to gain enough men. Thus they passed a conscription law to take what they needed. This law went into effect on April 1, 1862 and immediately conscripted all men serving in the Confederate Army, as well as all the new men the Confederates chose to grab.
No such thing ever happened in the Union Army. Individuals and units were routinely mustered out when their volunteer term expired. The government instead tried many methods to convince them to re-up: furloughs, bonuses, etc. Isn't that the truth? And aren't you deliberately trying to deny this truth that has been explained to you often before?
And yes, only about 6% of the entire Union Army was composed of drafted men. The rest were not drafted.
The Union preferred to use inducements to fill their ranks, with the stick of the draft reserved for when the quotas were not met. In general, this was successful until mid-1863
Yeah, that's when the draft started and then the riots in New York, Boston, and elsewhere.
The North had far more inducements to offer than the South...but still had problems raising troops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
The Confederates -- unable to get enough men by inducements -- used near-universal conscription as their stick, and beat men with it on a constant basis from April 1862 to the end of the war.
BS
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
The USCT 9United Stated Colored Troops) ... How many were Volunteers?
Battalion makes a habit of hiding behind the words of others and even then only in carefully edited snippets of doubtful validity or accuray.
Battalion, apparently has few thoughts of his own that he is actually confident enough of, to claim as his own and not just those of others.
He does this, I suppose, so that when the going gets tough he can 'claim' "I raised the question...haven't made any claims".
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice "And yes, only about 6% of the entire Union Army was composed of drafted men. The rest were not drafted."
Tim,
From where did you find that "6%of the entire Union Army" figure? The source I found said it was 6% of the 250k who received draft notices. This site say about 7% for Union and 23% for the Confederacy.
"Over the course of the war, 2.2 million men served in the Union Army (93% of whom were volunteers). The South, with a smaller population base, had 800,000 men pass through the ranks of the Confederate Army (77% of whom were volunteers)."
And yes, only about 6% of the entire Union Army was composed of drafted men. The rest were not drafted.
United States calls for troops while under the draft (passed March 1863):
Various calls 1863 to Feb 1864........700,000
July 1864.....................................500,000
December 1864.............................300,000
Actual number supplied 1863-64
Volunteers...........................1,077,000
Conscripts..............................169,000
Substitutes for Conscripts...........86,000
Conscripts (failed to report).......161,000
Total...................................1,493,000
They were in the same situation as the Confederates.
If they didn't volunteer...they would be drafted.
*******
Confederate Army
Total (1861-65)........................750,000-1,000,000
Conscripts (Apr.1862-1865).........................82,000
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 03-27-2008 at 09:28 PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
"And yes, only about 6% of the entire Union Army was composed of drafted men. The rest were not drafted."
Tim,
From where did you find that "6%of the entire Union Army" figure? The source I found said it was 6% of the 250k who received draft notices. This site say about 7% for Union and 23% for the Confederacy.
"Over the course of the war, 2.2 million men served in the Union Army (93% of whom were volunteers). The South, with a smaller population base, had 800,000 men pass through the ranks of the Confederate Army (77% of whom were volunteers)."
The US Army did a study of mobilization from 1775 to 1945 after WWII. If you look at the detailed charts in there, you'll see the numbers. The difference between 6% and 7% isn't much, and even today there are great discrepancies in the total number of men who served (for example, many men served more than once during the war, confusing the total count.) In short, the difference between your number and mine is fairly negligible.
As to people receiving draft notices, most of them did not serve. Many were released by failing the physical when they reported, for example.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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