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Where was Lee going when cross into PA. on his now infamous second campaign into the north?
Read the OR's on Gettysburg, from mid-June, 1863 to June 29, 1863. Unfortunately, most historians wrote primarily what happened on July 1, 1863 to July 3, 1863, and ignored what happened prior to Gettysburg and Lee's retreat.
Some Confederate units fought in Camp Hill, PA, near Harrisburg and near Wrightsville, Pa, both towns near the Susquehanna River.
I wonder if Lee realized that he was, in fact, giving up the initiative to the AoP. Letting its commander decide, when, where or whether to meet Lee's actions?
Great question from this post. I don't think Lee meant to give up the initiative, but was relying on Stuart to give him ample notice of the whereabouts of Meade. Lee was taking a risk. He knew his invasion north into PA. would be widely publicized, Union scouts would be riding all over the countryside, and it would be just a matter of time before he would bang into the AOP, who would be chasing him for reasons other folks have posted here - protecting Washington, Baltimore, and other places.
I think that Lee had confidence that Stuart would give him the necessary heads-up when the crucial moment was at hand, so Lee would have the time to deploy his army to gain the tactical advantage and whip Meade in his own backyard. Of course, history shows us that events didn't turn out that well for Lee, but it was a decent plan. Just my opinion.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
A decent enough plan, I agree. But even without Stuart, Lee still gained winning advantages, until the late afternoon of the 2d day and Lee let them slip through his hand.
To me, the invasion seems, indeed, to have had no 'real' aim, ranging all the way from gathering supplies, thru gaining foreign recognition, thru winning the war and all points in-between.
Opn, thanks for your reply. I guess the real aim of Lee's foray was probably all of those things you mentioned, if he'd had his 'druthers. If for no other reason I think he just wanted a "win" north of the Potomac somewhere. For what it's worth.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
As is probably well known on this board, my main problem with Lee's Pa. campaign, is my belief that the main reason (though unstated) Lee invaded Pa. was to scotch any plans to send him or any part of his army to the west. Which, IMO, was the only strategic move that was actually 'viable' within the capabilities of the CSA in mid-1863.
One more example that Lee was so wrapped up in the war in Va. that he was incapable making grand strategic plans that mainly involved the survival of the confederacy instead of only Va.
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Good of you to remind us Opn. We've gotten away from your position in discussing aims and logistics and tottery wagons and footsore horses.
Yours is an interesting and possibly valid speculation. That's another factor that comes down to precious little backup, however logical and believable. But even the most rabid yank finds it hard to name Lee a selfish conniver. Invading Pennsylvania to retain control of all his Virginia army? Poltroon! Snipesacker!
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
As is probably well known on this board, my main problem with Lee's Pa. campaign, is my belief that the main reason (though unstated) Lee invaded Pa. was to scotch any plans to send him or any part of his army to the west. Which, IMO, was the only strategic move that was actually 'viable' within the capabilities of the CSA in mid-1863.
One more example that Lee was so wrapped up in the war in Va. that he was incapable making grand strategic plans that mainly involved the survival of the confederacy instead of only Va.
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Onp, I do not agree with your swipe at Lee and his intentions.
Here something: Lee was adamant that they avoid an engage with the AoP in his orders he sent out to his corp commanders.
I know his army is stretched out and on the march but if your intention is to meet and defeat you opponent in his own backyard. Why avoid an engagement?
Unless he had a place pick out where he wanted to fight the AoP or there is something he want to secure before you meet the AoP. Remember, Lee was surprised the learn how far north the AoP.
Which means he thought he was going to time to do something before he was going to engage the AoP.
Maybe, He wanted to cross the Susquehanna and use the river to block AoP from there he could threaten the big cities in the area.
Remember, Lee was to live off the land and cut off his life line back to Va.
I agree with Opn. Lee wanted to totally strip southern VA and NC of any unit possible to be used in his invasion. He and Davis went back and forth on this for quite a while before he went north.
I do not think that Lee was, consciously, a selfish conniver, merely that his actions concerning the reasons's for invading Pa. in 1863, could, logically, lead one to that conclusion.
But, Lee was selfish as far as his not looking beyond the interests of the ANV and Va. (and, IMO. not wanting to) He did not connive, to protect his command and himself, any more than any other officer in history. But the fact remains that the Pa. Campaign was misbegotten from its very inception. From whether the results that could reasonably be expected from success in Pa. would outweigh the results from revitalizing the war in the West, through planning to put the ANV North of a bigger Union Army In Northern territory, from basing the plan on what the Union Army would do rather than what it could do, through, the liklihood that Lee was already experiencing debilitating effects of his failing health (and keeping quiet about it).
I admit that this is all hindsight, but the actual events, points out that the plan was faulty and was faultily executed. With Lee 'directly' responsibe for both faults.
I admit that this is all hindsight, but the actual events, points out that the plan was faulty and was faultily executed. With Lee 'directly' responsibe for both faults.
And on this point I completely and enthusiastically agree. The invasion was obviously a desperate measure. It may be supposed that he made it to avoid shipping troops west. It may also be supposed that he made it believing it might force Grant or Rosecrans to ship troops east. I consider both to be suppositions.
It looks to me like he got his confidence boosted a little overmuch at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, and he was taking a chance to force the AoP into attacking him again. How to force an attack? Go north.
He got caught, trouserless, at Gettysburg. And the forced attack flipped back on him. Seems the primary misjudgement in his plan was that he couldn't afford to be stopped for long, whether in Gettysburg or Harrisburg or across the Susquehanna. His plan required that he find a defensive position, set up defenses and get attacked the next day. An "if" too far.
He was expecting Hooker and got Meade, but I think he was still looking for the action of a Burnside. Nevertheless. He got close to his objective -- except for the attack part.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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