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View Poll Results: Who was the better general between these two Great Warriors?
Sure it was. The seven days for one was a full scale retreat. After which they went on the defensive waiting for the CS to make a move. That is an abandonment of the intentions of the campaign. The 2 phases of Vicksburg was not an abandonment of the plan, but a realization by Grant that other things needed to happen first, and that he would have to take a more circuitous route in order to get the job done. As the field commander, all movements made between Chickisaw bluffs and the actual capture of Vicksburg were a continuing effort to capture that army there.
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
I think I'm going to have to upchuck my lunch. The first campaign and the second campaign my sorry butt! There was one, and one only. Tentative stabs notwithstanding, the aim was Vicksburg. Grant diddled and dodged and then took Vicksburg. ONE campaign. Not two or three: ONE.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Bottom line, Grant took Vicksburg and 27,000 rebel POWs and then he proceded to take Jackson. It does not matter how long it took or that the campaigned stalled. It ended as a seige of the city until it finally capitulated on July 4, 1863. Grant may have been many things, a "butcher" in his own words and more importantly in Lincoln's words, "he fights". In the end Grant got the job done and just because his campaigns were not military masterpieces, but a war strategy of determination and attrition, cannot take away the end result, victory. Lee, on the other hand, for all his masterful straegy in the end lost. In war it is whether you win or lose and not how you play the game that counts.
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
We're now arguing for the sake of arguing! Nevertheless I agree with ole, its most aptly described as a single campaign. If you wish to describe it as two, then really that's fine by me.
Whats wrong with you people that want to break the VICKSBURG CAMPAIGN into multiple parts? What world are you living in? When the campaign started Vicksburg was the goal. In the end it was successfully captured. I don't see the grounds for breaking the campaign in to parts just so the Grant detractors can say he lost part of it. All moves from the begining to end are part of the same campaign and in the end it was a success.
Thanks, 27th. On my shelves and list, I call Fts. Henry and Donelson the kickoff of the Mississippi Campaign. When Grant went for those forts, his first priority was the Tennessee. But, even then, the ultimate goal was to take back the Mississippi. With control of the RRs at Corinth, Memphis folds, as was intended. That left Vicksburg and Port Hudson. They were dealt with in turn. With the taking of Port Hudson, the Campaign was complete.
One campaign, of which Vicksburg was a part.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Whats wrong with you people that want to break the VICKSBURG CAMPAIGN into multiple parts? What world are you living in? When the campaign started Vicksburg was the goal. In the end it was successfully captured. I don't see the grounds for breaking the campaign in to parts just so the Grant detractors can say he lost part of it. All moves from the begining to end are part of the same campaign and in the end it was a success.
I have no biases one way or the other concerning Grant...
...but it seems that some here are overzealous to defend his military reputation.
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When your plans are totally foiled and you are in full retreat -past and back of the starting point- that is a failed campaign.
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He's right...it was a miserable failure...
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
I have no biases one way or the other concerning Grant...
...but it seems that some here are overzealous to defend his military reputation.
~
When your plans are totally foiled and you are in full retreat -past and back of the starting point- that is a failed campaign.
~
He's right...it was a miserable failure...
again.. the fialure to take chickisaw bluffs cannot be laid at Grant's feet. His supply line was wrecked before he ever left. The message did not get to Sherman until after he left. Grant was not even in retreat at that time, he simply had to resecure his supply lines before continuing the campaign. Besides, if Grant hadn't had his supply lines disrupted he would not have realized how long his army could live off the land and THEN Vicksburg campaign might have had to be abandoned. Once he realized this he merely changed his focus to a more round about route, leavcing his supply lines a non-issue for the rest of the campaign.
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
Chickasw Bluffs was a feint. There were high hopes attached to it, but it remained a feint. Here I must agree with Battalion, it was a serious feint, a reconnaisence in force. I didn't--couldn't--work, Next! That dumb canal. Next! The endrun to Bruinsburg! And the Yankee crosses the end line and scores! Next?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Chickasw Bluffs was a feint. There were high hopes attached to it, but it remained a feint. Here I must agree with Battalion, it was a serious feint, a reconnaisence in force. I didn't--couldn't--work, Next!
ole
A feint meant to distract so Grant could achieve the larger objective which he had to abandon. If Grant were able to move down as planned it could have worked in his favor. Fault a cowardly little colonel Murphy for surrendering all the supplies without a fight to an inferior force for that one. As soon as Sherman was repulsed Grant modified the original plan and continued with the campaign. Think of it as a football field. Chickisaw was a false start with a ten yard penalty, but the drive was for Vicksburg and Grant scored a touchdown during that possession.
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
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He's right...it was a miserable failure...
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