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View Poll Results: Who was the better general between these two Great Warriors?
But Grant has the instrument to defeat Lee in 1864. Do you give no credit to Lee for holding out until 1865?
To a certain thing the same thing can be said for the Germans in 1944, Eisenhower has an overwhelming instrument at his disposal and the Allies do not win until April 1945 against Germany.
I see so often that Grant captured three "armies." I am unable to name them except for the AoNV. What was the army captured at Ft. Donelson? What was the army captured at Vicksburg? And weren't these just very large chunks of the Western Confederate commands, under whatever name they were called at the time?
And the 3-0 does not encompass the virtual destruction of the AoT during its Nashville Campaign. Grant didn't have hands on in that fracas, but he was Thomas' commander who was Schofield's.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
But Grant has the instrument to defeat Lee in 1864. Do you give no credit to Lee for holding out until 1865?
I'm not convinced that Lee should be given credit for holding out so long after the handwriting on the wall had dried. By New Year's Day, 1865 there were no supplies coming from Georgia. Six weeks later, there were no supplies coming from South Carolina. And only a ragtag conglomeration of troops stood between Petersburg and Sherman's 60,000 stone-cold veterans fired up with the smell of victory. His troops were on very short rations (I've heard 1/8) with little prospect of ever going back to full rations.
Credit? I don't think so.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I don't think Stuart and Forrest can really be compared fairly. They did different things. Stuart performed the traditional cavalry functions of reconnaissance and screening. Forrest wasn't that good at those functions, but he was good at raiding and using his men as mounted infantry.
Regards,
Cash
I partly agree with Cash on this one. The two generals were in totally different environments. Forrest, lacking any except self-taught tactics, simply played to a different drummer than Stuart. After a couple years' practice Forrest was in command of some combat situations at Murfreesboro against 8,000 or so folks at Fortress Rosecrans on Dec 6 and afterward with the rear guard of the AOT trying to hold off Wilson's pursuing cavalry.
Forrest, for instance, at the battle of Thompson's Station, actually performed as a cavalry, doing a nice flanking movement and capturing 1,200 yanks on the hillside just north of the depot. Forrest liked to fight. Period. Not so sure about Stuart.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
But Grant has the instrument to defeat Lee in 1864. Do you give no credit to Lee for holding out until 1865?
Of course. Lee had the foresight to have the defensive works around Richmond constructed. Lee was at his best on the defensive. But the Overland Campaign was still successful.
I see so often that Grant captured three "armies." I am unable to name them except for the AoNV. What was the army captured at Ft. Donelson? What was the army captured at Vicksburg? And weren't these just very large chunks of the Western Confederate commands, under whatever name they were called at the time?
No. A name isn't what determines an army.
At Fort Donelson the confederate army had two divisions, one commanded by Buckner and the other commanded by Pillow. It had three artillery batteries, Guy's Battery, Goochland (VA) Light Artillery, Green's Tennessee Battery Light Artillery, and French's Virginia Battery Light Artillery. It had a brigade of artillery under Forrest. Also present were Col John Head's garrison units, three regiments of infantry and three batteries of artillery. The overall commander was John Floyd. Overall, about 16,000 troops.
At Vicksburg, the name of the confederate army was the Army of Vicksburg. You can see their order of battle here:
And the 3-0 does not encompass the virtual destruction of the AoT during its Nashville Campaign. Grant didn't have hands on in that fracas, but he was Thomas' commander who was Schofield's.
ole
True, but Grant exercised very little, if any control of that campaign.
Grant fought in all the major theatres (excluding the Trans-Mississippi). Met and Defeated all the major confederate armies (and their commanding generals) that Richmond could send against him. Including the Army of Northern Virginia Including 'Bobby' Lee himself.
Wherever Grant went Success was sure to follow.
Those who actually know their Civil War history know there was only one campaign for Vicksburg mounted by Grant. It lasted from December of 1862 to 4 July 1863.
Grant's first campaign against Vicksburg (Nov-Dec 1862) involved 70,000 men-
"In late summer and early autumn of 1862, after the battles of Iuka (Sept. 19) and Corinth (Oct. 3-4) in north Mississippi, the initiative swung to Union forces under Maj. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant. Grant's objective was the Confederate stronghold on the Mississippi River - Vicksburg. To seize this important point he proposed splitting his force in two. One wing, consisting of 40,000 troops under Grant's personal command, was to march south along the line of the Mississippi Central Railroad from Grand Junction, Tennessee, and into north Mississippi. His wing was to draw Confederate troops into the northern portion of the state and keep them pinned along the Yalobusha River near Grenada. The other wing, consisting of 32,000 soldiers under Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, was to make an amphibious thrust down the Mississippi River and capture Vicksburg.
Grant's column started the march on November 26 and slowly moved south through Holly Springs and Oxford toward Grenada. Although he had detached troops to guard his lengthening communications and supply lines, the lines remained exposed and vulnerable. On December 20, raiding Confederate cavalry commanded by Maj. Gen. Earl Van Dorn captured the Union supply base at Holly Springs and destroyed more than a million dollars worth of supplies. Another successful raid was conducted by Confederate Brig. Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest into West Tennessee in which 60 miles of railroad vital to Grant were broken up. The raids compelled Grant to abandon his operations and fall back on Memphis." http://civilwarlandscapes.org/cwla/states/ms/cb/intro/pre.htm
Raid on Holly Springs, Mississippi Main depot of supplies for Grant. 1500 prisoners. Over a million dollars worth of supplies captured and destroyed.
"Confederate General Earl Van Dorn thwarts Union General Ulysses S. Grant's first attempt to capture Vicksburg, Mississippi, when Van Dorn attacks Grant's supplies at Holly Springs, Mississippi.
Grant planned a two-pronged attack on the last Confederate stronghold on the Mississippi River. He would take a force from western Tennessee to approach Vicksburg from the interior of Mississippi. Meanwhile, General William T. Sherman would lead an army down the Mississippi River for an attack from the north. Grant said, 'We can go as far as supplies can go.'
The plan started on a good note--Grant's army pushed aside Confederates in northern Mississippi. In response, Confederate cavalry colonel John Griffith suggested attacking Grant's supply line at Holly Springs, and he recommended Van Dorn for the mission. To that point, Van Dorn had done little to build his reputation. He lost the Battle of Pea Ridge and the Battle of Corinth earlier in 1862, and he was known for his drunkenness and tendency to cavort with prostitutes.
Van Dorn gathered three cavalry brigades and left Grenada, Mississippi, on December 17. On December 20, Van Dorn fell on the Union supply depot at Holly Springs, driving the Yankee defenders away and capturing materials. What could not be carried was destroyed. Van Dorn remained in the area a few more days, cutting rail and telegraph lines, before fleeing in the face of pursuing Union cavalry. The Confederates rode 500 miles in two weeks, returning on December 28 after successfully disrupting Grant's campaign. The raid was the highlight of Van Dorn's military career. He was murdered five months later by the husband of a woman with whom he was having an affair." http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...tegory&id=2424
Battle of Chickasaw Bluffs Federal casualties.....1,776 Confederate.................207
"On December 26, 1862, three Union divisions, under Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, disembarked at Johnson's Plantation on the Yazoo River to approach the Vicksburg defenses from the northeast while a fourth landed... upstream on the 27th. On the 27th, the Federals pushed their lines forward through the swamps toward Walnut Hills, which were strongly defended. On the 28th, several futile attempts were made to get around these defenses. On December 29, Sherman ordered a frontal assault which was repulsed with heavy casualties.
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Thanks for the clarification. At least, at Vicksburg, it was an army. I remain unconvinced that Ft. Donelsons force was a real "army," but I'm nit-picking and will let the whole thing slide.
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True, but Grant exercised very little, if any control of that campaign.
Nevertheless, he was aware and was, realistically, overseeing it. Again, I'm nit-picking and will acquiesce.
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Grant fought in all the major theatres (excluding the Trans-Mississippi). Met and Defeated all the major confederate armies (and their commanding generals) that Richmond could send against him. Including the Army of Northern Virginia Including 'Bobby' Lee himself.
Wherever Grant went Success was sure to follow.
To continue the nit-picking, Grant did a bit or two across the river. There was Belmont and a stint in command in NE Missouri. I do agree that wherever Grant went, success followed. He stumbled now and then, but the bottom-line does have his signature on it.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Sherman then withdrew. This Confederate victory frustrated Grant's attempts to take Vicksburg by direct approach."
Stopped short of the first down on this play, he did an end run and moved the ball downfield and scored. What is your point?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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