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In many ways this is a fruitless discussion. Grant was the greater general, say one side, because he won, the only real test of generalship. The other side says, Lee was the greater general because he always faced, and often won against the odds, and his contest against Grant in 1864-65 was against an opponent with greater resources.
Both Lee and Grant had great ability and insight into war making. It's childish to say they never made terrible errors, like Lee at Gettysburg, or Grant at Cold Harbor, errors paid for in other men's blood. But its equally childish to extoll one and not the other.
Grant's victories and how he achieved them are remarkable feats. He understood and utilized the most modern technology in communication and transportation. He devised a strategy for winning the war that stretched across a continent. He would eventually force the surrender of three Confederate armies. The title of "butcher" is not appropriate, unless one wants to mention many other generals, including Lee as "butchers."
Lee's victories, and how he achieved them are also remarkable. His insight and ruthlessness in conducting war is not always understood. He called for conscription immediately and articulated a vision of total mobilization of the Confederacy for war. Of all the Confederate commanders he managed an effective partnership with Davis. Of all the Confederate commanders he harnessed his collection of touchy and quarrelsome subordinates into a team, and forged the ANV into a hard hitting, mobile and responsive force. The failure of the Confederacy to devise an effective strategy for defending the West was Davis and his western generals' failure, not Lee's.
Campaigns: Grant - 5-0 [Fts Henry & Donelson, Vicksburg, Chattanooa, Overland, Appomattox]
Lee - 2-4 [Seven Days, 2nd Bull Run, Antietam, Gettysburg, Overland, Appomattox]
Casualty rate [killed and wounded] suffered:
Grant - 15%
Lee - 20.2%
Casualty rate [killed and wounded] inflicted on the enemy:
Grant - 20.7%
Lee - 15.4%
Note, Grant also captured three entire armies (14,000 at Fort Donelson, 29,500 at Vicksburg, and about 35,000 during the Appomattox Campaign) that aren't reflected in the casualties inflicted on the enemy.
Regards,
Cash
I notice that you left off Grant's list Shiloh and on Lee's list you left off Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville. I just curious why.
Wow! Grant capturing three intact armies that is an impressive feat.
My son wonders where his fellow pro-Lee fans are for he believes if Lee and Grant met and everything being equal it Lee all the way.
He also wants everyone to just think what lee could have done if he would have had Grant's resources and superior numbers.
I said "What if are wonderful."
Reminds me of a painting... I think its a Kunsler... Lee riding through a town on his horse and a little old lady whispering "O I wish he were ours!"
__________________
"In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
My son wonders where his fellow pro-Lee fans are for he believes if Lee and Grant met and everything being equal it Lee all the way.
I consider myself a Lee fan, but Grant was the better general in all respects. Lee was #2, but #2 isn't bad at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5fish
He also wants everyone to just think what lee could have done if he would have had Grant's resources and superior numbers.
I said "What if are wonderful."
We'll never know, and you may as well wonder what Lee would have done if he had a B-52 at Gettysburg [Old SNL skit]. JFC Fuller took on a study of Grant and Lee. When he began the study he considered Lee to have been the best general of the war and thought Grant was a mere butcher. When he finished his in-depth study of the two, Fuller considered Grant not only the better general, but he also considered Grant the greatest soldier of the era.
I consider myself a Lee fan, but Grant was the better general in all respects. Lee was #2, but #2 isn't bad at all.
We'll never know, and you may as well wonder what Lee would have done if he had a B-52 at Gettysburg [Old SNL skit]. JFC Fuller took on a study of Grant and Lee. When he began the study he considered Lee to have been the best general of the war and thought Grant was a mere butcher. When he finished his in-depth study of the two, Fuller considered Grant not only the better general, but he also considered Grant the greatest soldier of the era.
Regards,
Cash
Fuller was doing fine until he mentioned the word "soldier". That was a man from west Tennessee, Nathan Bedford Forrest. Lee and Grant were not soldiers, they were generals. Bedford wasn't the world's greatest general, but no man denied he was a soldier.
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Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
Fuller was doing fine until he mentioned the word "soldier". That was a man from west Tennessee, Nathan Bedford Forrest. Lee and Grant were not soldiers, they were generals. Bedford wasn't the world's greatest general, but no man denied he was a soldier.
Compared to Forrest, Lee and Grant were merely officers. Lee had proven himself in war prior to his rise in the Confederacy. Grant, as you know, wanted little or no part of the war. Forrest on the other hand seemed to enjoy a good fight.
__________________
Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
Compared to Forrest, Lee and Grant were merely officers. Lee had proven himself in war prior to his rise in the Confederacy. Grant, as you know, wanted little or no part of the war. Forrest on the other hand seemed to enjoy a good fight.
Larry!
To write or talk using Forrest name in the same sentence with Lee and Grant is to be foolish. Forrest only claim to fame is Shelby Foote mention him in that Ken Burns "PBS civil war series" many years ago.
If I mention his true claims to fame like slave trader, KKK leader or maybe Ft. Pillow. Do you see a soldier that can be mention in the same breath with Lee and Grant.
I do know he had some bright moments during the civil war like buying his way into being an officer, or his escape from Ft. Donaldson, and he did come up with some useful saying about warfare. Yet, again I do not see how you can mention him along side the names of Lee and Grant.
What do I know for I am east of those mountains and Forrest never came east to play with the big dogs!!
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