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"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 10-05-2007 at 08:56 AM.
CW- I think Battalion's intent is to provide numbers which show the Civilized Tribes of the Indian Territory adopted slavery as part of their 'settled' culture. In other words, it's not just whites or aristocrats that adapted slavery to their way of life, but that the type of local usage (planter culture/ economy) dictated moreso that slavery would develop and/or thrive. If I misrepresent Battalion's meaning, he will be along to clarify. I like the map (I'm a map guy); because I have nothing to say differently, I accept the numbers. I also commend Battalion for posting these for us and for doing it without insulting anyone. regards, ed
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
I'm with you Ed. It might be meant to show that the Indians owned black slaves. (Wait! It didn't say "black slaves," did it?) It's no secret that Indians made slaves of captives. Now I wonder how many of the slaves belonged to the nearly 2000 whites?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I'm with you Ed. It might be meant to show that the Indians owned black slaves. (Wait! It didn't say "black slaves," did it?) It's no secret that Indians made slaves of captives. Now I wonder how many of the slaves belonged to the nearly 2000 whites?
ole
The leased land could be a number of things. Like land leased to Texas Ranchers but I believe it refers to land leased to the goverment for reserves for other tribes outside the Five Civilized Tribe Nations.
The Five Civilized Tribes did own slaves, and not war captives actual bought and paid for slaves. It bears remembering that the Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, Chickasaw and Seminole nations were removed from the Southeast U.S. where they had owned farms that ran on slave labor.
In the I.T. some farms were actually more akin to plantations and were run by slave labor.
As too the whites it was required at the time that for a white to legally live and hold property in any of the nations that they be married to a member of that nation. Although I'm sure not all of them were living there legally.
The Free Blacks in some cases also held slaves in the I.T. provided they had been granted membership in one of the nations. And in the case of the Seminole Nation many of the free blacks were runaway slaves that had been granted membership.
Thanks for coming back on that, Border. You obviously know a whole bunch more about the Territories than I do. You've already given a good deal of information. If you have more of that, I'll sit here and wait for it.
olr
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Can't grow up within spitting distance of the Nations and not pick up a little.
The I.T. was pretty hottly contested in the early war. McCulloch's actual duty was to secure the Indian Nations for the CS along with Albert Pike.
The Five Civilized tribes were pretty much divided on the issue as well raising both Union and Confederate units. However unlike the rest of the country it seems that it was divided on which group you wanted to control your Nation. Especially in the case of the Cherokee were Watie and Ross were fighting for control. Each aligned against the other.
The factions that did side with the CS in the Five Civilized tribes did pay for it in the end by having some of their holdings reallotted at the end of the war. Some went to "loyal" Indians and some went to the freed slaves who were also given standing in the Nations regardless of blood.
I'm with you Ed. It might be meant to show that the Indians owned black slaves. (Wait! It didn't say "black slaves," did it?) It's no secret that Indians made slaves of captives. Now I wonder how many of the slaves belonged to the nearly 2000 whites?
ole
The Indians were tangled up in this activity around Charleston, South Carolina as well. Our old nation has a few warts if you peek under the shirt.
__________________
Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
I think Battalion's intent is to provide numbers which show the Civilized Tribes of the Indian Territory adopted slavery as part of their 'settled' culture. In other words, it's not just whites or aristocrats that adapted slavery to their way of life, but that the type of local usage (planter culture/ economy) dictated moreso that slavery would develop and/or thrive. If I misrepresent Battalion's meaning, he will be along to clarify. I like the map (I'm a map guy); because I have nothing to say differently, I accept the numbers.
What is notable is how few slaves there were- 10% -and some of these were owned by the 2,000 whites.
The Nations were divided over several issues- feuds, internal politics, religion, cultural disputes between full-bloods and mixed-bloods, etc. The slavery issue seems to be very low on the list.
The chiefs that sided with the North owned as many slaves and in some instances far more than those that sided with the South.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 03-28-2008 at 12:43 PM.
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