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Pity is not the word I am looking for right now, but it will have to do.
The Pity is that you can NOT determine real history, even if it smacked you dead in the face or kicked you square in the a**. No, Pity is not the word I could use, for it would mean that you are simply mistaken, and not locked into a pattern of thought that you happily indulge in, no matter what the historical evidence, no matter how beyond reproach it would be.
LOST is a better word, but since you take such a path by your own choice, so that can't be right either.
Willful, contrived, enforced, and wholly embraced lack of historical fact, is something that you appear to work hard at, struggling to maintain this alternate reality at the risk of learning anything factual concerning history.
Loss. That's the word I'm looking for, and now I know exactly what I wish to say.
Your loss.
Unionblue
You miss a few points.
Sir.
If I may.
Then.
"In this enlightened age, there are a few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong form the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence." Robert E. Lee, in a letter to his wife, December 27, 1856.
Do you, at all, disagree with Lee's statement? Can any one of you?
Lee spoke the Truth. American Slavery, and the Slave Trade, were an evil, as practiced by the
Slave Traders, and many in the states who did not follow the Biblical admonish for treating their slaves and servants.
But, as Davis said, slavery is an institution from the Bible, and had certain laws for its use. We won't venture there.
Now. I know the scriptures, but I also know that none of you want to hear them. So I won't share. Yet. Here.
But back to Lee. Are you saying that the Institution was not painful? Or that Black would always be lesser, like Southern Left Wing Newspapers and Stephens were championing? Lee says no such thing here. Davis, to my knowledge, says no such thing, at all.
Are you saying that if we dragged these people back to Africa, and gave classes in how to get your drinking water from a buried root, while stabbing a cow's neck for its blood, as a source of liquid nourishment, in one of the absolute most cursed places on Earth... that Americanized Africans would have stood a chance against the first famished Lion that came along? Or a bunch of pre-Darfur terrorists bent upon ruling that sand-hole?
What is your beef with that?
Here's the end of the matter. You decided to 'throw down' before we got here, but here it is.
The United States Government always knew that it would one day have to do what Lincoln said; GIVE THE MONEY BACK from slavery, because the Negro is becoming civilized, and is not any longer a savage, capable of
living in africa...
The Federal Government owed it to every plantation from which it had ever taken taxes or tariffs (or for those of you nit-pickers, MONEY OF ANY KIND from the Southern plantations) and knew that the Institution was dying, because the Trade was dead, 250,000 of them in the South had already gotten their freedom, and were 'colored taxpayers' (and many of them owned a bunch, themselves), and there were some four million enslaved negroes that the Feds were going to have to pay for... when the time came.. As there is nothing worse than a 'reformed' anything, British human right groups and idiots like these American terrorist Abolitionists groups were continually screaming about oppression - about fifty or so odd years after the worst of it was already over... and the practice had dwindled to families and plantations like Avenel where many went about basically unemployed due to the numbers of them present for the amount of work to be done...
The War was a brilliant idea.
Threaten and cause great fear at the South, who being the self-service crowd of Conservatives that they are, were not used to living on the government dole, as were the yankee left, (and despite having that leftist 'Unionist' Stephens element among them, in the Confederacy, spewing racism in order to keep the Black man permanently in chains), yes, Threaten them with terrorism, and back John Brown and Salmon P. Chase and William Seward, and thugs like Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner, let's lose all of this in a great and terrible war so that NO REPARATIONS FOR THE NEGRO will ever have to be made...
And instead of paying out millions to the South, for a Compensated Emancipation (Lincoln would have shot himself first, I do believe), let the FREEDMANS BUREAU
pretend to help 1/2 of 1% of all the NEWLY freed, so that about a million of them starve to death, and the rest become slaves of the Federal Welfare system...
Oh, and any and all gains the Freed made in the South will just VANISH, with no PRIMARY SOURCES (ahem) recording any of this...
Because McPherson will need to justify this disturbing mess a hundred some years from now...
This now fully explains why the WAR WAS OVER SLAVERY. The Federal Government, under its new left wing masters and overlords, were taking this opportunity to steal everything the South had...
If the South caved in, and accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and the terrorism so great in the South by maggots like Brown, that their economy would be in shambles... And the effect is that the South is not any longer a part of the Union, by their refusal to leave it, and start over, away from those who would oppress her right to even survive, economically or even physically... in the Union.
If the South fought back, and tried to gain independence from these cursed Left wing Republicans, then we have the permission of the public to destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
Like YOU are trying to do, right now.
That about sums it up.
Was going to hack this up some, but it looks like the writer doesn't need my help to point out the inanities. ole
Beowulf
I fear that, in the pleasure of this conversation, and seeing that old Yankee charm for uncontrolled vitriol-tossing to which your kind usually resort, in cases where they are pushed, even just a bit, from their imperialist position...
Sigh.
You miss a few points.
Sir.
If you can - contain - your indignation at being challenged by one of the lower life forms - I would like to call what is left of your attention to a few salient points...
If I may.
Then.
"In this enlightened age, there are a few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong form the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence." Robert E. Lee, in a letter to his wife, December 27, 1856.
Do you, at all, disagree with Lee's statement? Can any one of you?
Yes, now and forever, then and now.
Lee spoke the Truth. American Slavery, and the Slave Trade, were an evil, as practiced by the
Slave Traders, and many in the states who did not follow the Biblical admonish for treating their slaves and servants.
But not evil enough to oppose, to try and stop, to take a stand SOMEWHERE. Lee felt that the suffering and degredation of slavery was some form of God-sent instruction and would be solved in God's good time. Heaven forbid he should try any active path in ridding the country of this "evil."
But, as Davis said, slavery is an institution from the Bible, and had certain laws for its use. We won't venture there.
We shouldn't, as any fanatic can pull out a lesson that supports evil or a specific agenda from the Bible, one of the most misused books in the history of the planet.
Now. I know the scriptures, but I also know that none of you want to hear them. So I won't share. Yet. Here.
Thank God.
But back to Lee. Are you saying that the Institution was not painful? Or that Black would always be lesser, like Southern Left Wing Newspapers and Stephens were championing? Lee says no such thing here. Davis, to my knowledge, says no such thing, at all.
Again, I can only suppose that the above that completely misconstrues my meaning concerning Lee's views on slavery and that somehow Jefferson Davis did not support the idea of keeping fellow human beings in bondage is a willful suspension of belief on your part. Your knowledge is limited because you chose not to expand it on these points.
Are you saying that if we dragged these people back to Africa, and gave classes in how to get your drinking water from a buried root, while stabbing a cow's neck for its blood, as a source of liquid nourishment, in one of the absolute most cursed places on Earth... that Americanized Africans would have stood a chance against the first famished Lion that came along? Or a bunch of pre-Darfur terrorists bent upon ruling that sand-hole?
People prefer freedom to danger, the right to try and survive and prosper over any enforced kind of safety. The fact of the matter is these "Americanized Africans" had no say if they would like to attempt such or not. The phrase "For their own good" has proceeded many an evil and Southern slavery was one.
What is your beef with that?
My beef is that I see many people supporting the institution of slavery for economic reasons, religious reasons, and political reasons, but I see none of those supporters suggesting to swap places with the slaves, even if it would be "for their own good."
Here's the end of the matter. You decided to 'throw down' before we got here, but here it is.
The United States Government always knew that it would one day have to do what Lincoln said; GIVE THE MONEY BACK from slavery, because the Negro is becoming civilized, and is not any longer a savage, capable of
living in africa...
Pure BS and personal agenda.
The Federal Government owed it to every plantation from which it had ever taken taxes or tariffs (or for those of you nit-pickers, MONEY OF ANY KIND from the Southern plantations) and knew that the Institution was dying, because the Trade was dead, 250,000 of them in the South had already gotten their freedom, and were 'colored taxpayers' (and many of them owned a bunch, themselves), and there were some four million enslaved negroes that the Feds were going to have to pay for... when the time came.. As there is nothing worse than a 'reformed' anything, British human right groups and idiots like these American terrorist Abolitionists groups were continually screaming about oppression - about fifty or so odd years after the worst of it was already over... and the practice had dwindled to families and plantations like Avenel where many went about basically unemployed due to the numbers of them present for the amount of work to be done...
A new approach, but not a novel one. The fact was slavery was GROWING, not declining, and the demand for prime field hands was UP not down. There was no indication from any sector of the American South to get rid of the institution nor that it was not a viable economic one. You again refuse to read source documents to show where this is true. But then, I am not surprised.
The War was a brilliant idea.
Advocated and pushed for by those who feared for the institution of slavery and that it might be restricted and prevented from being an engine of economic prosperity for the South.
Threaten and cause great fear at the South, who being the self-service crowd of Conservatives that they are, were not used to living on the government dole, as were the yankee left, (and despite having that leftist 'Unionist' Stephens element among them, in the Confederacy, spewing racism in order to keep the Black man permanently in chains), yes, Threaten them with terrorism, and back John Brown and Salmon P. Chase and William Seward, and thugs like Thaddeus Stevens and Charles Sumner, let's lose all of this in a great and terrible war so that NO REPARATIONS FOR THE NEGRO will ever have to be made...
And instead of paying out millions to the South, for a Compensated Emancipation (Lincoln would have shot himself first, I do believe), let the FREEDMANS BUREAU
pretend to help 1/2 of 1% of all the NEWLY freed, so that about a million of them starve to death, and the rest become slaves of the Federal Welfare system...
Beowulf, as noted on other threads of this forum, Compensated Emancipation was offered to the South before and during the Civil War, as late as 1864. The South turned it down each time.
Oh, and any and all gains the Freed made in the South will just VANISH, with no PRIMARY SOURCES (ahem) recording any of this...
When threatened by the idea that even antebellum Freed Negroes might actually be able to exercise equal rights, the South exploded into terrorists acts that resulted in another 100 years of black codes, restrictions, denied voting rights, and yet you would lay this all at the North's feet. Be careful, Beowulf, people can read and they will find you wanting on this score.
Because McPherson will need to justify this disturbing mess a hundred some years from now...
This now fully explains why the WAR WAS OVER SLAVERY. The Federal Government, under its new left wing masters and overlords, were taking this opportunity to steal everything the South had...
The above is what I take it for, a personal opinion/rant and again a view that must deny actual history in order to work, therefore utterly worthless.
If the South caved in, and accepted Sectional Left Wing Republican Rule, their property would be devalued, by being outlawed unconstitutionally in the territories, and the terrorism so great in the South by maggots like Brown, that their economy would be in shambles... And the effect is that the South is not any longer a part of the Union, by their refusal to leave it, and start over, away from those who would oppress her right to even survive, economically or even physically... in the Union.
Rant/Personal Opinion/etc.
If the South fought back, and tried to gain independence from these cursed Left wing Republicans, then we have the permission of the public to destroy them all... and curse their memory for all eternity....
Like YOU are trying to do, right now.
That about sums it up.
Beowulf
The problem is Beowulf, as it continues to be, you consider this personal, somehow, that it is "I" am trying to do all the summing up or some such.
Your beef is with history, the already accomplished fact of the past. You must somehow change these accomplished facts, ignore them or create some sort of climate in which others will not face them and learn from them.
Every post you place here reinforces that personal crusade of yours and warns everyone here that they must check their facts, verify what is stated here, and draw their own conclusions, no matter what you and I believe here.
You serve a useful purpose here. You are a warning that even though it is in a book or on the internet doesn't mean what is printed or posted here or there is the truth. It's too easy to just read a book one likes and just go with the flow.
That is something each and every person must find out for themselves, even if it takes a little effort and a little sweat.
If nothing else you encourage that effort.
If nothing else.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Psychomike,
You posted a photograph of African American federal soldiers, United States Colored Troops. I mean, its a famous, frequently reproduced image. The men are wearing federal uniforms, the plate on their belts reads US. What was the point of posting it?
There was a photograph of United States Colored Troops, taken in Pennsylvania that was photoshopped and labelled "First Native Guards." It was cited as proof of the existence of black confederate infantry. But that was exposed as a hoax years ago.
Is there a site you're getting this info from? Because, a word to the wise, it seems pretty bogus.
Also Psychomike,
You mention "apartheid after the war" I assume you mean the Jim Crow system. Well, its hard to blame Lincoln was that, since he was dead, having been murdered by a man horrified that Lincoln was going to make black people citizens.
You can blame the North for allowing Jim Crow, and practicing forms of racial segregation in the 19th and 20th century(such as redlining).
But Southern whites established Jim Crow, after Reconstruction ended. The Repubican party abandoned black citizens after Grant's administration, but the people who created and enforced Jim Crow were white Southerners. It took a vigorous application of federal power in the 1950s adn 60s to end those practices.
In Plymouth Massachusetts there is an interesting museum called Plimouth Plantation, where the staff dress as Pilgrims, and speak in the accent and vocabulary of 1627.
I must say, when I read posts shedding tears over the poor slaveowners losing their slaves I sometimes think: it's a put on.
C'mon. Every Beowulf post can be summed up as "South good. North bad." Or perhaps: "South the closest thing to gods, demigods and heroes walking the Earth. North all that is vile, disgusting, amoral, degraded, etc., etc., etc. Everything good in the last 500 years is the result of Southerners, their ancestors and descendants. Everything evil in the world in the last 500 years can be laid at the feet of the Northerners and their satanic high priest, Lincoln."
Does that about sum it up?
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
You can blame the North for allowing Jim Crow, and practicing forms of racial segregation in the 19th and 20th century(such as redlining).
Allow it?...They instituted it-
Plessy v Ferguson, Supreme Court
For Segregation (7)- Stephen J. Field (appointed by A. Lincoln) California (born in Connecticut) Horace Gray (Chester Arthur) Massachusetts Melville W. Fuller (Grover Cleveland) Illinois (born and raised in Maine) Henry B. Brown (Benjamin Harrison) Michigan (b. in Massachusetts) George Shiras, Jr. (Benjamin Harrison) Pennsylvania Edward D. White (Grover Cleveland) Louisiana Rufus W. Peckham (Grover Cleveland) New York
Against (1)- John M. Harlan (Rutherford Hayes) Kentucky
Not Voting (1)- David J. Brewer (Benjamin Harrison) Kansas (b. in Turkey, raised in Connecticut)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMcK
But Southern whites established Jim Crow, after Reconstruction ended. The Repubican party abandoned black citizens after Grant's administration, but the people who created and enforced Jim Crow were white Southerners. It took a vigorous application of federal power in the 1950s adn 60s to end those practices.
But the North had its own unofficial practices. Boston schools were desegregated in 1973 by court order...That was about the last bastion of segregated schools.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
C'mon. Every Beowulf post can be summed up as "South good. North bad." Or perhaps: "South the closest thing to gods, demigods and heroes walking the Earth. North all that is vile, disgusting, amoral, degraded, etc., etc., etc. Everything good in the last 500 years is the result of Southerners, their ancestors and descendants. Everything evil in the world in the last 500 years can be laid at the feet of the Northerners and their satanic high priest, Lincoln."
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