Civil War History - General DiscussionFor Discussions on Civil War Era Personalities, Politics, Issues, Campaigns, Battles, and more. Serious Civil War Discussions Only Please! All other posts will be deleted.
Actually Battalion 1900+ to go... and unanswered questions you appear unable to answer continue to linger.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Just for background information for those reading this, according to the US Census in 1860 there were a bit over 20,000 free black men in the South (IIRR, just over 22,000).
Slaves could not, legally, have been soldiers in the Confederate Army until late March of 1865. Free black men were exempt from conscription into the Army, and we know, for sure, that the Confederate Secretary of War was officially opposed to making any change to allow any Negro or "colored person" to serve as a soldier as late as November 3rd, 1864.
When the "Negro Soldier Bill" did finally pass the Confederate Congress in March of 1865 and was signed into law by Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee began appointing a few recruiting officers with the power to recruit under that act. The only troops known to have been mustered into the Army under it are two small companies in Richmond (one side or the other of 100 men, depending upon who is telling the story, had been recruited privately among the hospitals there beforehand and were ready quickly when the law passed). These two are seen marching through Richmond, act as a wagon guard on the retreat to Appomattox, deploy briefly as Union cavalry attacks the trains, and the survivors are seen digging entrenchments at Farmville.
No other troops are known to have been formed and mustered in before the war ended. In some areas, it is known that Lee's recruiting order arrived after news of his surrender, and there is no evidence anyone tried to actually recruit anyone there. Not surprising, given the speed with which the rest of the Confederacy decided the time had come to surrender.
There are some instances where a few people described as "colored" seem to have served in Confederate units, but it is hard to discover anything further than that about them. Other than the two companies mentioned above, there are NO verifiable units of "black Confederates" in the Confederate Army. There are a few small state units -- never accepted in the Confederate Army -- that are claimed as units composed of "black Confederates". They are small and no real definitive documentation for them exists; they generally seem to have been part of Home Guards and partisan units.
There is no known instance of any "black Confederate" unit participating in any battle of the Civil War other than the wagon guard described above. We can find accounts of black individuals, usually slaves accompanying their masters, participating in small actions.
There were slaves conscripted or hired from their masters as labor to dig trenches, etc. These were not soldiers; they were not paid, although their masters were -- and their masters got a compensating payment if they were killed or injured, because of the loss to their "property" under the law.
There were fairly large numbers of slaves with the armies performing menial duties: cooks, teamsters, laborers, servants, etc. Many were the body servants of soldiers, which often implied a close relationship different than the average between master and slave.
It is very easy to find references to this in the Official Records as well as in the original newspapers and personal accounts of the time. There is no reason to believe there was any large number of "black Confederates" at any time during the war unless you want to count slaves who had no real say in the matter.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
You seem fixed upon 1000 men of the 1st LA Native Guard who never saw combat for the CS...
50 regiments of the USCT were never in a battle.
Are you going to exclude them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by js
and you have to stretch to get them included in the ranks of soldiers.
Stretch?
They were in the ranks as soldiers.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
They served as soldiers under Confederate command.
You sound like a broken record, so now its my turn.
Martial Law does not make them soldiers.
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
You sound like a broken record, so now its my turn.
Martial Law does not make them soldiers.
Wrong.
They were not on duty as postmen or firemen...
...but as soldiers.
~
General Lovell's definition of Martial Law-
"...in a city under Martial Law, there can be but one military head, to whom all troops on duty should be subject and from whom they should receive their orders..." ("all troops")
Lovell to Governor Moore, 16 April 1862
"...If...any...are on duty here as soldiers, they are by law under my command, as laid down in the 62d Article of War..."
Lovell to Governor Moore, 22 April 1862
Both of these were in reference to militia/state troops.
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Yet you have yet to prove it by any stretch of the imagination. As far as I can tell they were never armed. When were they paid? When were they mustered? Who did they fight along w/ when & where? What were their casualties and what casualties did they inflict? Where are the action reports? I eagerly wait your answer to these questons.
You seem fixed upon 1000 men of the 1st LA Native Guard who never saw combat for the CS... and you have to stretch to get them included in the ranks of soldiers. Hardly what I would call evidence that masses of black men flocked to the banner of the CS. In fact it seems more like evidence that you have no evidence.
Since Battalion will probably avoid answering this, I thought I'd post some of the information. I am sure you already know most of it.
Louisiana was severly short of small arms for troops at this time. In late February, 1862 the Governor staged a "grand review" in New Orleans at which some 25,000 militia marched. General Lovell was informed that only about 6,000 of them had weapons, and those mostly shotguns/etc. the men had supplied themselves.
The Native Guard was officially disbanded at this time. They did not participate in the "grand review". I have seen an article extract that mentions they had about 120 rifles, privately supplied, but it is footnoted to a 1919 article in a journal I have never seen; as a result, I cannot say at what date they might have had those rifles.
About this time, Grant took Henry & Donelson, Nashville fell, A. S. Johnston concentrated at Corinth, and Louisiana was stripped of available troops. Frragut arrived off the mouth of the Mississippi, and soon had some forty vessels in the river, with Butlers troops from Ship Island as the land force.
Proceedings of the Court of Inquiry upon the fall of New Orleans.
=====
Maj. W. H. DEVEREUX was then duly sworn and examined as a witness.
By Maj. Gen. MANSFIELD LOVELL:
Question. What position did you hold at the time General Lovell took command of Department No. 1 and from that date to the evacuation of New Orleans?
Answer. I held the position of chief of staff to Major-General Twiggs at the time General Lovell arrived to take command of Department No. 1, and continued in that capacity under Major-General Lovell until his own staff was organized, when, being ranked by Major Palfrey, I performed the duties of acting assistant adjutant-general in immediate and confidential connection with Major-General Lovell.
...
Question. What was the number and composition of the troops in the city at the time of the evacuation and how were they armed?
Answer. There were two brigades of State troops, under Generals Tracy and Buisson, in New Orleans at the time of its evacuation. These numbered in all, perhaps, 3,000.men; were new levies, chiefly composed of the men of the families resident in and about the city. They were indifferently armed, shot-guns being I believe the prevailing weapon. Two-thirds of them belonged to the French class of the population. Included in the above estimate was a battalion of some 400 men, Orleans Guards, which was well armed and equipped. There were, besides, the Confederate Regiment State Troops, about 700 strong, well armed and equipped, and the Pinkney Battalion (now Eighth Louisiana Battalion), heavy artillery, 500 unarmed men, newly enlisted, occupying the works on the river above and below the city; also the Thomas Battalion Confederate Troops, numbering about 350 men, also unarmed.
=====
Lieut. Col. E. F. PALFREY, C. S. Army, was next sworn and examined as a witness.
BY the JUDGE-ADVOCATE:
Question. Where were you on duty in April, 1862, and for several months prior thereto? What was your rank and position at that time?
Answer. I was on duty as major, adjutant-general's department, on the staff of Major-General Lovell, in the city of New Orleans, from November 7, 1852, to the fall of the city.
Question. What forces were in the city and removed at the time of the fall
Answer. There was but one company of Confederate artillery, disciplined, Semmes' battery, and about 4,000 militia, turned over for local defense by the governor a short time before the city fell, armed chiefly with old altered muskets and double-barreled shot-guns— the shot-guns predominant. The majority of the militia and local defense troops remained in the city, and a large portion of the local defense force that went to Camp Moore returned to the city, being over age, and merely enlisted for duty in New Orleans.
Question. What was the character of the population in New Orleans, in a military point of view, when it was captured?
Answer. The best fighting material was off in the armies of the Confederate States; that left consisted of old men and foreigners. A large portion of the German population was disloyal. There were a good many others capable of bearing arms, but there were no arms for them.
Question. Was not the impression created upon the public mind that you had at New Orleans shortly before its fall a force of 20,000 or 25,000 men? If so, state, if you can, by whom it was created and for what purpose.
Answer. In February, 1862, Governor Moore and his major-general of militia, Lewis, proposed a grand turn-out of all the militia in the city, saying that they could parade about 25,000 men, and asked my opinion as to the policy of such a display. I asked how many of them could be furnished with arms of any description, even pistols and sabers, to which they replied about 5,000 or 6,000. I then objected strongly to parading 18,000 or 20,000 men without a weapon as an uncalled-for display of weakness. They replied that the papers, in giving an account of it, need not speak of their arms and equipment, but would mention their numbers. I said we would only deceive our own people, as the enemy had, without a doubt, spies among us, who would give him correct information. A parade was, nevertheless, made of 25,000 or 26,000 men, and the adjutant-general of Louisiana, at my request, furnished me a return of all those in any manner armed, who numbered about 6,000 men. This was before the troops were sent to Beauregard. The next morning all the papers gave glowing accounts of the magnificent parade of 25,000 men that occurred on the day previous. This was doubtless the origin of the impression. Had I had 25,000 additional infantry I should have still evacuated the city, as numbers would only have added to the slaughter. They could have inflicted no damage to gunboats anchored off the city, while they themselves would have been within point-blank range.
=====
HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT NO. 1,
New Orleans, La., April 12, 1862.
General GEORGE W. RANDOLPH,
Secretary of War:
SIR: I have the honor to report that we shall in a few days have about 5,000 men in this part of the State enlisted for the war for whom I have no arms. All the troops for the interior lines about the city that I had organized were sent to Corinth, and the defense of those lines left in the hands of a few badly-organized volunteers, very poorly armed. ...
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
M. LOVELL,
Major-General, Commanding.
=====
There wasn't much in New Orleans when Farragut arrived. Some part of the Native Guard was there, assigned a sector, but no one knows how much and the only number I have seen for it was about 300 men present. Looking at the statements above from Confederate officers, that sounds like it might have been somewhere close, and it is doubtful they all had arms. At no point were they part of the Confederate Army, being simply a local defense force/militia within the city.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Just for background information for those reading this, according to the US Census in 1860 there were a bit over 20,000 free black men in the South (IIRR, just over 22,000).
What age groups?
What are the totals state by state?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Tim recently wrote: "There were fairly large numbers of slaves with the armies performing menial duties: cooks, teamsters, laborers, servants, etc. Many were the body servants of soldiers, which often implied a close relationship different than the average between master and slave."
That's probably a reasonable description of the relationship of the several men in Forrest's Escort. I would submit, though, that the teamsters in Forrest's command were far beyond menial duty. Try hauling field artillery and ammunition 25-30 miles in a day over some of Tennessee's muddy 1860s roads.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
"...in a city under Martial Law, there can be but one military head, to whom all troops on duty should be subject and from whom they should receive their orders..." ("all troops")
Lovell to Governor Moore, 16 April 1862
"...If...any...are on duty here as soldiers, they are by law under my command, as laid down in the 62d Article of War..."
Lovell to Governor Moore, 22 April 1862
Both of these were in reference to militia/state troops.
~
Articles of War
ART. 62. If upon marches, guards, or in quarters different corps shall happen to join or do duty together, the officer highest in rank, according to the commission by which he is mustered in the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or militia, there on duty by orders from competent authority, shall command the whole and give orders for what is needful for the service, unless otherwise directed by the President of the Confederate States in orders of special assignment providing for the case. ….Approved March 6, 1861. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-b...3DANU4519-0127
ORDERS NO. 426 HDQRS. LOUISIANA MILITIA, ADJT. GEN. ‘S OFFICE New Orleans, March 24, 1862.
I. The Governor and commander-in-chief, relying implicitly upon the loyalty of the free native colored population of the city and State for the protection of their homes, their property, and for Southern rights from the pollution of a ruthless invader, and behieving that the military organization which existed prior to the 15th of February, 1862, and elicited praise and respect from the patriotic motives which prompted it, should exist for and during the war, calls upon them to maintain their organization, and to hold themselves prepared for such orders as may be transmitted to them.
II. The colonel commanding will report the organization without delay to Maj. Gen. John L. Lewis, commanding State militia.
By order of Thomas 0. Moore, Governor and commander-in-chief: M. GRIVOT, Adjutant and Inspector General.
~
Sounds like a military organization (soldiers) to me.
Don't see anything about firemen or postmen.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
