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Oh, come now. You know that the Native Guards unit formed in the city of New Orleans in 1861, never left the city, and were disbanded on February 15, 1862 by Louisiana law. They did participate in two "grand review" parades in November and January, but were otherwise stay-at-home militia not in active service of any kind, drilling on their own and staying in civilian life.
Then, on March 24, 1862, the Governor's office writes a letter asking them to maintain their organization (already officially disbanded for five-and-a-half weeks) and havetheir colonel report to the the state Militia commander:
Nope.
Re-read- "The colonel commanding will report the organization without delay to Maj. Gen. John L. Lewis."
It's from your post-
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
ORDERS NO. 426.
HDQRS. LOUISIANA MILITIA, ADJT. GEN.'S OFFICE,
New Orleans, March 24, 1862.
I. The Governor and commander-in-chief, relying implicitly upon the loyalty of the free native colored population of the city and State for the protection of their homes, their property, and for Southern rights from the pollution of a ruthless invader, and believing that the military organization which existed prior to the 15th of February, 1862, and elicited praise and respect from the patriotic motives which prompted it, should exist for and during the war, calls upon them to maintain their organization, and to hold themselves prepared for such orders as may be transmitted to them.
II. The colonel commanding will report the organization without delay to Maj. Gen. John L. Lewis, commanding State militia.
By order of Thomas O. Moore, Governor and commander-in-chief:
M. GRIVOT,
Adjutant and Inspector General.
~~~
The reason for this is that Farragut has arrived at the mouth of the Mississippi River, the state has been called on to send troops to Tennessee where A. S. Johnston is concentrating for what will be the Battle of Shiloh, and so there is a desperate shortage of troops and weapons.
The Native Guard regiment does show up, at least in part, and is assigned a sector in the city of New Orleans. I doubt anyone knows today how many men showed up; the only comment I recall said about 300 men did. [but you never supplied the source fo this] The Federals steamed past the forts on the Mississippi, the Confederates withdrew from the city to Camp Moore, and the Mayor surrendered the city to the Federals, who had occupied it by May 1. The "Confederate" version of the Native Guard regiment disbands for good.
Now you know all this. You have known it for a long time. It has been pointed out to you many, many times, and you have never once been able to come up with any evidence that the Native Guard ever participated in any battle on the side of the Confederacy. Yet here you are saying "As for being in a battle...I'm not certain."
I'm not saying they were...
...but note-
...the folks that said they never were in a battle (fight/skirmish) for the South are the same that said the entire regiment switched sides.
So much for those sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Balderdash. I submit that you know they never did, and that this is simply more of your usual policy of never admitting facts you do not like. If you have any evidence to suport a belief the Louisiana Native Guard regiment of the Confederate side participated in a battle, present it now. If you do not, simply suck it up and admit that they never did.
Tim
As I said before...I don't know.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Please note: this does not make them part of the Confederate Army. It would merely make them State Militia that had to take orders from Confederate officers -- like the Mississippi State Militia at Brice's Crossroads taking orders from Nathan Bedford Forrest.
"It would merely make them State Militia that had to take orders from Confederate officers"
Yeah..........
......that's right.
They were under a Confederate general officer...within a Confederate command...in a Confederate State...
...for all intents and purposes that appears to be Confederate.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Nope.
Re-read- "The colonel commanding will report the organization without delay to Maj. Gen. John L. Lewis."
It's from your post-
No, that is just you once again quoting things out of context, and in this case deliberately removing three words before the period from the sentence you are quoting. Why did you leave out the words ", commanding State militia" in the sentence?
As is typical of you, you are taking one tiny section of the letter and making pretend the parts you don't like magically disappeared. Note again that this is an organization that the Governor's office knows has ceased to exist. For clarity, the parts you omitted are in blue italics, but I have changed that to red bold italicson the part you seem to direct your attention to.
===== ORDERS NO. 426.
HDQRS. LOUISIANA MILITIA, ADJT. GEN.'S OFFICE,
New Orleans, March 24, 1862.
I. The Governor and commander-in-chief, relying implicitly upon the loyalty of the free native colored population of the city and State for the protection of their homes, their property, and for Southern rights from the pollution of a ruthless invader, and believing that the military organization which existed prior to the 15th of February, 1862, and elicited praise and respect from the patriotic motives which prompted it, should exist for and during the war, calls upon them to maintain their organization, and to hold themselves prepared for such orders as may be transmitted to them.
II. The colonel commanding will report the organization without delay to Maj. Gen. John L. Lewis, commanding State militia.
By order of Thomas O. Moore, Governor and commander-in-chief:
M. GRIVOT,
Adjutant and Inspector General. =====
Why do you bother to destroy your own credibility with these obvious distortions?
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
"It would merely make them State Militia that had to take orders from Confederate officers"
Yeah..........
......that's right. They were under a Confederate general officer...within a Confederate command...in a Confederate State...
...for all intents and purposes that appears to be Confederate.
Balderdash, once again. As you know or should know by now, these were Louisiana Militia, not Confederate troops. There was a formal process that transferred troops from state forces to Confederate forces. When it is accomplished, the troops are paid by the Confederate government, not the state government, and listed on the rolls of the Confederate Army. It didn't happen here. Martial law does not transfer state troops to the Confederate Army.
As you also clearly know, the Native Guard was ordered to report to a Lousiana state Militia general -- not a "Confederate general". They are, legally, part of the Louisiana state forces -- not the Confederate Army. As to being in a "Confederate state", that is a totally empty statement and meaningless. The Militia of every state in the Confederacy qualifies that way, and unless mustered into the Confederate Army legally they are not members of the Confederate Army. Your wishes don't make it any different.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
I'm not saying they were...
...but note-
...the folks that said they never were in a battle (fight/skirmish) for the South are the same that said the entire regiment switched sides.
So much for those sources.
As I said before...I don't know.
More balderdash. We have already been through this and you, yourself, have stated a large number of these men later served the Union. I know of no one on this Forum claiming they all did. This is just another unbelievable red herring to try to avoid admitting that you have nothing at all to back up what you say.
The truth appears to be that you simply cannot face the facts openly. These men never served in any battle for the Confederacy. You undoubtedly know it, so you try to hide behind these silly evasions. If you think something else, name the battle. Or admit you have nothing.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
No, that is just you once again quoting things out of context, and in this case deliberately removing three words before the period from the sentence you are quoting. Why did you leave out the words ", commanding State militia" in the sentence?
Doesn't matter.
~
This is what you wrote-
Then, on March 24, 1862, the Governor's office writes a letter asking them to maintain their organization (already officially disbanded for five-and-a-half weeks) and havetheir colonel report to the the state Militia commander
...You left out the part about the organization reporting-
"The colonel commanding will report the organization without delay to Maj. Gen. John L. Lewis"
Including the "state militia" part doesn't matter.
They are all under Confederate command.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Why do you bother to destroy your own credibility with these obvious distortions?
Tim
There are no distortions...
...and you are running out of arguments.
~
Martial Law is the trump card. I hold it in my hand.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
Balderdash, once again. As you know or should know by now, these were Louisiana Militia, not Confederate troops. There was a formal process that transferred troops from state forces to Confederate forces. When it is accomplished, the troops are paid by the Confederate government, not the state government, and listed on the rolls of the Confederate Army. It didn't happen here. Martial law does not transfer state troops to the Confederate Army.
Martial Law placed all forces in New Orleans under command of General Lovell (CSA).
The Native Guards were doing duty as soldiers under Confederate command.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
As you also clearly know, the Native Guard was ordered to report to a Lousiana state Militia general -- not a "Confederate general". They are, legally, part of the Louisiana state forces -- not the Confederate Army. As to being in a "Confederate state", that is a totally empty statement and meaningless. The Militia of every state in the Confederacy qualifies that way, and unless mustered into the Confederate Army legally they are not members of the Confederate Army. Your wishes don't make it any different.
Tim
By what authority does General Lovell (CSA) issue this order to [Lt.] Col. H.D. Ogden?
(Ogden was Lt.Col of the Native Guard Reg't, LA State Troops, he was re-commissioned as such on 13 March 1862) -
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
By what authority does General Lovell (CSA) issue this order to [Lt.] Col. H.D. Ogden? (Ogden was Lt.Col of the Native Guard Reg't, LA State Troops, he was re-commissioned as such on 13 March 1862) -
I thought it was the governor who issued the order through his Adjutant and Inspector General. Is there a record of Lovell ever communicating directly to Col. Ogden?
Quote:
Nitpicking.
Agreed.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Martial Law placed all forces in New Orleans under command of General Lovell (CSA).
"Martial Law" simply places the power over everything in the area under the designated commander. It did not make the women and children part of the Confederate Army. It did not make the foreigners in the area part of the Confederate Army. It did not make the Native Guard part of the Confederate Army. It did not make the rest of the Militia in the area part of the Confederate Army.
Quote:
Originally Posted by battalion
The Native Guards were doing duty as soldiers under Confederate command.
Actually, I have never seen any indication that General Lovell even knew they were there and they are not mentioned in any list of forces in the Confederate records I have seen. When I posted a list of forces in the city to you, taken from the testimony at the Confederate investigation of Lovell's actions, and asked you where in the list they were, you never answered, so we have to assume you don't know -- and since you once asked me where they were deployed in the city, we have to assume you don't even know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by battalion
By what authority does General Lovell (CSA) issue this order to [Lt.] Col. H.D. Ogden?
(Ogden was Lt.Col of the Native Guard Reg't, LA State Troops, he was re-commissioned as such on 13 March 1862) -
Proclamation of Martial Law, 15 March 1862-
[/quote]
What order to Lt. Col. Ogden? Your link is to a General Order sent out by Lovell's Assistant Adjutant General, J. G. Pickett. It is not addressed to anyone in particular, or anyone at all, for that matter. It deals with the institution of a passport system, the closing of saloons, a requirement to take the oath of allegiance, and the expulsion of those the provosts suspect. The mention of Ogden names him as one of six provost-marshals; note that four of the six are civilians (one is a judge), so he is probably being named as a locally respected citizen in the Fourth District. The Native Guard does not exist at the time -- as the Governor's office makes plain on March 24, and as you already know.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
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