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No, Battalion, anyone who actually bothers to read Sherman's letter objectively will see that Sherman's meaning is entirely different in context than the distortion you are trying to present.
This merely repeats the similar attempt you made to distort Robert E. Lee's position on secession about a year ago [I believe you have me confused with someone else...don't remember posting anything about Lee's position on secession] when I first started participating in this forum, using exactly the same sort of "..." snippets. Your current post just shows more of the same attempts to deny an already revealed truth you showed then, and in the months since on other misrepresentations. By your own actions, you mark yourself still further as unreliable in what you post, exactly the sort of intellectual integrity shown by those who make all those blurb quotes in movie ads I mentioned before.
Why you would do this to yourself after it has been repeatedly shown that people here bother to check to see what you have distorted I do not know. As I said, at this point all it does is mark you as one who engages in deliberate attempts to distort and deceive with your own posts.
Tim
No.
What's going on here is I am one of very few that posts a counter-view to the usual Glorious-Union-Glop that we see so much of on this board.
This makes me a target for attack.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
What's going on here is I am one of very few that posts a counter-view to the usual Glorious-Union-Glop that we see so much of on this board.
This makes me a target for attack.
Nope. I would welcome honest, critical, documented debate from you or anyone who wishes to support the Southern viewpoint. So would many others here. Those same people, however, are disgusted by your repeated attempts to mislead and deceive, which is why they have, in the end, been forced to respond so directly and forcefully to your posts.
What purpose do your deliberate distortions, easily shown, serve? I found it just as offensive when you distorted Robert E. Lee's position as I do when you distort William T. Sherman's. Why bother to do it?
I too, am sorry that the letter HAD to be posted in it's entirety and that it was necessary to do so, but glad that it was done so others could view it and make up their own minds as to its content.
I like your story concerning Napoleon's soldiers knowing when they were being lied to. I found during my service time with the Army that the 'common' soldiers always knew when they were being lied to by their command or leadership. It is something instinctive to soldiers and as a 1st Sgt anytime I had to give out bad news or dirty details, I knew it was best to give it straight up, rough edges and all. Trust was the hardest thing to earn with soldiers and the easiest thing to lose with them if they were lied to or fed a line of pure bull.
One liners here on this board, along with carefully cherry-picked portions of source documents, tends to do the same thing with the more experienced board members here at this site. You quickly lose any trust you might have built up and find it extremely hard to get back with such tactics.
It is a hard lesson for some and for some, a lesson they will never learn.
Battalion, you are NOT a target for the backslappin, Union glop of this board. One only fires at a target one considers dangerous to himself or his views. You don't waste ammunition on something or someone who is only a danger to himself.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Last edited by unionblue : 06-04-2007 at 04:23 AM.
...I like your story concerning Napoleon's soldiers knowing when they were being lied to. I found during my service time with the Army that the 'common' soldiers always knew when they were being lied to by their command or leadership. It is something instinctive to soldiers and as a 1st Sgt anytime I had to give out bad news or dirty details, I knew it was best to give it straight up, rough edges and all. Trust was the hardest thing to earn with soldiers and the easiest thing to lose with them if they were lied to or fed a line of pure bull. ...
Another part of this is the difference in understanding between those who have direct experience from those who have not. None of us now can say we directly experienced the Civil War, so we must be doubly careful to see that we understand these people as they saw themselves.
Just as an example: one time I was having breakfast with my Dad, years ago, when I was maybe 25. I never served in the military, but always liked military history, and was discussing some island in the Pacific when I made the comment that it had been taken with "light casualties". Dad (who did slog through fighting as tough as any American in WWII) has always taken the time to correct me when I say something foolish (still does) and he made a point of it that time because he felt I had missed something important.
He tapped me on the arm and waited a beat or two until I had paused and looked him in the eye. Then he gave me the lesson he felt I needed: "There are no 'light casualties' when they are yours."
It is inevitable that time and resource constraints will force us to make judgements on the past without complete knowledge. It is important to understand that those men were no less bright than we, just as complex and conflicted as we are, just as human, driven by all the same angels and demons we see around us, subject to all the same snares and traps. Only their circumstances and times were different, not their souls and spirits.
Taken by itself, Sherman's sentence can be presented to mean many things. Taken as part of the letter he was writing, and in relation to the letter he was answering, it is clear he never meant what Battalion wants it to mean. Possibly he was unaware of this when he first came across the sentence; maybe when he did it was also misrepresented out of context. But once he has been shown the complete letter and context, all excuse for his misrepresentation vanishes, and his conduct can no longer be excused or overlooked. Given his record of doing this same misrepresentation of other quotes from other people, he does nothing but damage his credibility with those who understand what he is doing.
The problem is that many people are casual browsers of boards such as this. They will see the constantly repeated falsehood and assume it must be true; few will have the time, interest, or skills to find the actual complete letter and discover the misrepresentation. I believe those who like to flood the Internet with such disinformation do so with that in mind. That makes it necessary to go through with this distasteful posting of rebuttals.
Far better for Battalion to spend his time looking for truth and understanding of the past rather than items to distort. The men who fought for the Union were by no means saints, and there are many things to criticize them for. Southerners were caught in a difficult situation over slavery, one I could never have come up with a clear-cut solution to if asked. But in the end, the last 150 years of history show slavery would be ended here (officially and largely, if not completely and in all its forms). In that sense, the secession and Civil War was about how short and how painful the process would be. I just think the South chose the wrong path to the end, and brought it all on sooner.
Ah, well. This gets to the point of beating a dead horse. We should get back to other matters unless it seems necessary to point out what Battalion is doing again.
We should get back to other matters unless it seems necessary to point out what Battalion is doing again.
Regards,
Tim
Unfortunately it will be necessary, the man all but refuses to admit a mistake unless badgered about it... which makes one wonder just how often he's been caught at it. He is merely another Suwanee in a cleaner jacket. As I've said a lack of integrity is the hallmark of the Lost Cause and it's worshipers.
__________________
Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
Unfortunately it will be necessary, the man all but refuses to admit a mistake unless badgered about it... which makes one wonder just how often he's been caught at it. He is merely another Suwanee in a cleaner jacket. As I've said a lack of integrity is the hallmark of the Lost Cause and it's worshipers.
Note to fellow Southerners:
"johan_steele
Brig. General, Moderator"
This is what passes as a "moderator" on this forum.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
This is what passes as a "moderator" on this forum.
One of the jobs of a moderator is to point out what is unacceptable. Deliberate deception and misrepresentation would be one of those things, and you seem determined to continue your policy of doing that. I note that every post you make with this line from Sherman out of context --after having been repeatedly shown that you are engaged in a misrepresentation of what Sherman meant -- is nothing but an attempt to deceive the world, and possibly yourself. Personally, I would suggest you stop doing so before you criticize others for anything.
I also think, BTW, that "fellow Southerners" is a very self-serving phrase. I've met lots of people from the South through the years - many related to soldiers from the Civil War as well as other wars -- who would not put up with the deceptions you are trying to put across.
One of the jobs of a moderator is to point out what is unacceptable.
Is another part of the job to refer to people as lost causers?
(Not just myself...but many others)
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Deliberate deception and misrepresentation would be one of those things, and you seem determined to continue your policy of doing that. I note that every post you make with this line from Sherman out of context --after having been repeatedly shown that you are engaged in a misrepresentation of what Sherman meant -- is nothing but an attempt to deceive the world, and possibly yourself. Personally, I would suggest you stop doing so before you criticize others for anything.
There is no misrepresentation.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
New York Times, 27 September 1861
Last edited by Battalion : 06-04-2007 at 10:13 AM.
Is another part of the job to refer to people as lost causers?
(Not just myself...but many others)
I don't know, but why does that bother you? It was Southerners who invented the term, and it is associated with a specific group of ex-Confederates/Southerners over the decades. Is that how you consider yourself, as one of them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
There is no misrepresentation.
Yes, there is, Battalion, yes, there is. All anyone has to do is to go back to the first post in this thread to actually read what Sherman said in it's context and entirety, then look at how you are trying to present it, and they will see your deliberate misrepresentation.
If you think not, just explain in your own words what you intend to say with Sherman's quote. You have been asked to do this repeatedly on this and other quotes, you always avoid doing so. Why is that?
I don't know, but why does that bother you? It was Southerners who invented the term, and it is associated with a specific group of ex-Confederates/Southerners over the decades. Is that how you consider yourself, as one of them?
Oh, wow...you mean it's a compliment?[/sarcasm]
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
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