Civil War History - General DiscussionFor Discussions on Civil War Era Personalities, Politics, Issues, Campaigns, Battles, and more. Serious Civil War Discussions Only Please! All other posts will be deleted.
I don't know how many of you are readers of North and South (but I'm pretty sure many of you are) there was an article in Issue 1, Volume 10 pertaining to this very issue, particularly in the years of 1863-1865. The author, George S. Burkhardt, made some interesting observations, I thought. Burkhardt says in his article that not only did black servitude in the south provided wealth for the upper crust, it also assured the lower classes that they had acceptable status. With the freeing of blacks from slavery, the southern social structure would fall apart. Southerners were not as much infuriated by the emancipation of slaves as by the fact that they were taking up arms against their former masters. This was a big reason for the policy that any black captured in arms against the south was to be executed.
He also names several different massacres of black troops by Confederate forces, such as Fort Pillow, but also the killing of black troops and their officers after the battle of Olustee, and the lesser known massacre of black troops at Poison Springs. He isn't able to go into great detail, it being an article for a magazine, but he still names enough to show that these weren't rare events.
Burkhardt also shows that it wasn't just Confederates who took place in this so callled "black flag" warfare, but Union troops began it too, in response to not only the murder of surrendering black troops, but in response to men such as Mosby who was known to have executed men he captured. If you want to know more about this issue, Burkhardt has written a book entitled Confederate Rage, Yankee Wrath: No Quarter in the Civil War.
I will once more say that I do not think that in any way is reprisal killing or the killing of prisoners is a legitimate tactic. Yes, we have seen it throughout wars in history, but war has become somewhat more civilized, if that is possible to say. Any person who is convicted of this is usually either executed themselves, or sent to jail for a very long time. The Japanese paid dearly for this sort of thing at the end of the war. But this is an interesting topic to be sure. Good discussion guys!!
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
"The Battle of Fort Pillow, also known as the Fort Pillow Massacre, particularly in the North, was fought on April 12, 1864, at Fort Pillow on the Mississippi River in Henning, Tennessee, during the American Civil War. The battle has caused great controversy about whether a massacre of surrendered African-American troops was conducted or condoned by Confederate Major General Nathan Bedford Forrest."
A clerk in the Confederate War Department in Richmond wrote on June 11, 1864:
"Mr. Rhodes, Commissioner of Patents, told me to-day that Gen. Forrest, at last accounts was at Tupelo, Miss., doing nothing - Gen. Wheeler, his junior in years, superior in rank, to whom he is again subordinated by the potency of Gen. Cooper's red tape, having most of his men."
Mathew wrote: "Killing prisoners or soldiers seeking to surrender often involves several factors. If the victims are a different racial group, surrendering becomes problematic."
Nothing wrong with that statement, but the point with Ft. Pillow is that there is strong evidence that the black folks were killed because they did not surrender? Seems to me their superiors should claim a bit of guilt rather than trying to propagandize Forrest?
I must state the I am certainly not IDEALISTIC with regard to Nathan Bedford Forrest, having become interested in him some ten years ago, beginning my study with no preconceived notions. I was taught in school that Gen. Lee fought the civil war for the south. I've read every piece of Forrest documentation I can get my hands on for the past several years. This man was no saint as much evidence records. He was also an honorable man, his character exhibited many times over. Many folks do look at him with bias for many different reasons. I don't consider myself in that company.
Some yankees still work mighty hard to scar his memory. Us folks down here don't see it that way. Most of our wasted time is spent on Sherman.
__________________
Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
Dear Larry
According to the accounts quoted by other posters(I am not an expert, or even a student of Ft Pillow), several USCTs were surrendering or had surrendered, and then were killed by the Confederates. If those accounts are true, then it isn't a case of USCTs refusing to surrender, because they think they will be killed.
The First South Carolina Volunteers, the black regiment I did study, didn't see much combat, but in my reading they mention several times that they fought "with the noose around their necks," because the assumption was they would be executed by the CS government as slaves in rebellion.
Burkhardt also shows that it wasn't just Confederates who took place in this so callled "black flag" warfare, but Union troops began it too, in response to not only the murder of surrendering black troops, but in response to men such as Mosby who was known to have executed men he captured. If you want to know more about this issue, Burkhardt has written a book entitled Confederate Rage, Yankee Wrath: No Quarter in the Civil War.
There is good evidence an actual Black Flag was flown at Fort Pillow...but not by the Confederates.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
There is good evidence an actual Black Flag was flown at Fort Pillow...but not by the Confederates.
There have always been rumors that the Bradford people were. However, if you are referring to the flag Captain Bradford was waving as he tried to rally the troops during the final assault and was killed -- that has also been described as a dark blue signal flag. Since Captain was the signals officer and had just been engaged in trying to signal the Union gunboat New Era when the attack came in and he was shot down, there has to be a good chance that this was not a "black flag" at all.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
A clerk in the Confederate War Department in Richmond wrote on June 11, 1864:
"Mr. Rhodes, Commissioner of Patents, told me to-day that Gen. Forrest, at last accounts was at Tupelo, Miss., doing nothing - Gen. Wheeler, his junior in years, superior in rank, to whom he is again subordinated by the potency of Gen. Cooper's red tape, having most of his men."
Is this just a pure coincidence?
It appears to be simply wrong.
On May 23rd, Chalmers was sent to central AL with most of his own division and Gholson's brigade of MS militia to protect that area against potential raiders from GA (Sherman's cavalry). Three regiments of Chalmers remained with Forrest, who put them in a new brigade forming under Rucker. On the same day, Sherman was wiring orders from GA for an operation against Forrest and S. D. Lee.
On May 31, Forrest received authorization to raid into Middle Tennessee with 2,000 men, to strike at Sherman's LOC.
On June 1, Sturgis expedition left Memphis on a raid into Mississippi under Sherman's orders. Forrest left Tupelo for the Tennessee River the same day.
On June 3, Forrest received orders from S. D. Lee to cancel his operation, reverse his march, and return to MS to face Sturgis. Forrest was at Russelville, AL when he received those orders, with 2200 of his own men and another 1000 of Roddey's cavalry he'd picked up along the way. Forrest reversed his march, rode hard for Tupelo, and was back there on the 5th.
Forrest began concentrating his men, and by the 8th was at Booneville, some 30 miles above Tupelo. On the 9th, two men of the command were executed for desertion, and S. D. Lee was at Booneville meeting with Forrest. Lee left on the 8th, leaving matters in Forrest's hands.
The period of the 10th to the 13th covers the battle known as Brice's Cross Roads, of which Col. William A. Mitchell of West Point would later write: "for use of cavalry in battle, no better example can be found than Forrest's employment of cavalry at Brice's Cross Roads"
General Wheeler at this time was General Johnston's cavalry commander in GA. He was intimately involved with the day to day operations against Sherman's advance throughout this period. Forrest reported to S. D. Lee in MS thoughout.
Regards,
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Why would the union commander, in his right mind, fly the black flag? Assuming its true, and honestly this one I would like you to cite, the only conceivable reason would be if the Confederates were flying it, or somehow let it be known that no quarter would be given, and the Union commander decided to fly it as a defiant gesture.
The problem with the Confederate side of the argument is that it is actually the policy of the Confederate government to commit just such an atrocity.
The only defense that I see here to the atrocity is if the black soldiers, knowing of the Confederate govt's proclamation, are not inclined to surrender and fight on until surrender is an absolute necessity. For instance, if a soldiers shoots his musket, then drops it to the ground and surrenders it is more understandable not to want to take that soldier's surrender. Further, it does seem that the atrocity is contemperaneous with the hostilities and insufficient time has passed to permit 'cooler heads to prevail.'
This is one of the ultimate crimes of warfare in general. We take normal people who are farmers, bakers, shop-keepers and we arm them to the teeth with the best weapons of the day and lead them into stressful situations that will be the most violent experiences of their lifetimes and then we expect them to flip the switch back to perfect civility. These are not the ideal cicumstances to bring out the best in people.
Thats what makes it quite believable that there were executions of black troops by Forrest's men at Ft. Pillow. I haven't gotten to read much on the subject, but it is on my list of things to do. The policy of the Confederate government was to execute any blacks who were captured in arms against the CSA. It's a documented fact. There are also examples of other executions of black troops by CSA forces throughout the last years of the war. It happened at other places, and it would not stike me as impossible for it not to have happened at Ft. Pillow.
As to a Union officer flying a black flag, I dont' know. It will take some further reading for me to see what at least I can find out.
__________________ "The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
Thats what makes it quite believable that there were executions of black troops by Forrest's men at Ft. Pillow. I haven't gotten to read much on the subject, but it is on my list of things to do. The policy of the Confederate government was to execute any blacks who were captured in arms against the CSA. It's a documented fact.
What document? What policy of the Confederate government?
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
