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If it is agreed that both sides committed 'war crimes' what is the point of trying to quantify competing atrocities or determining whose hands were 'more' bloody than anothers?
I think there's a big difference between a bunch of wild eyed Southern boys raising Cane and State Sponsored Terrorism. When the government turns its hands onto the citizenry, we ought to all be outraged.
That Whacko at Virginia Tech was pure lee evil. No doubt about it. But I think he might pale in comparison to them soldier boys at Kent State in 1970.
I reckon the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were stepped on, trampled, violated and totally ignored by a whole bunch of different agents of the USA & CSA governments before, during and after the great unpleasantness. I ain't never said it was any other way. In fact, I think I said it was pretty much going on all around.
I think that's why alot-o-Southern folks fought. They saw our rights bein' trampled and they fought against it. They didn't fight "for" slavery and they didn't fight "against" it. They didn't fight "for" Jeff Davis, they fought "against" Abe Lincoln.
Modern day Reconstructionist Revisionists want to shove the evils of slavery and the glorious union down our throats. I think that's cause it makes 'em feel good, but that don't make it so.
So it is December of 1860. Lincoln has won an election, fair and square if you don't count the Southern Fire-Eaters deliberately sabotaging the chances of the Democratic Party. SC has called up their Militia, seceded, has troops observing Major Anderson's men, and is making threatening noises about taking the post by storm. No one has "invaded" the South. No one has done anything to the South. No one has violated any of their "rights". But Southerners are perfectly willing to rise up and attack the rest of the country, to threaten war and economic ruin, to seize forts and ships and Customs Houses and a Mint and arsenals and funds and supplies of bullion. Please explain how this is legal and justifiable behavior in a civilized society.
Please explain how this is legal and justifiable behavior in a civilized society.
Well sir, I don't know if I can. I ain't so well versed on these matters. I'm certainly not an eloquent writer and able to put all of my knowledge and experience into words. I ain't no constitutional scholar and I certainly ain't able to refute the whole host of writers and thinkers who've passed this way before me.
I don't think I'm "for" secession, but I know I'm "against" coercion.
In 1860, our country had talked about secession quite a bit. As I recall, at any given time throughout the 75 year history of our republic, any different one of the various sections had talked about, threatened or even attempted secession. I guess they knew more about it then than we know about it now.
Maybe they shouldn't have fired on Ft. Sumpter. Heck, hindsight is 20/20. They shouldn't have fired on Ft. Sumpter. But I don't think that means Lincoln has the right to call up troops and invade the southland and Capt. Lyons sure didn't have the authority to do what he did in St. Louis.
So, the shootings at Va. Tech. was pure evil, BUT, what happened at Kent State was worse. How do you quantify that, Ozark Iron John?
You seem to be making a value judgement; that the death at Kent State outweighs the deaths at Va. Tech.
Well sir, I don't know if I can. I ain't so well versed on these matters. I'm certainly not an eloquent writer and able to put all of my knowledge and experience into words. I ain't no constitutional scholar and I certainly ain't able to refute the whole host of writers and thinkers who've passed this way before me.
I don't think I'm "for" secession, but I know I'm "against" coercion.
In 1860, our country had talked about secession quite a bit. As I recall, at any given time throughout the 75 year history of our republic, any different one of the various sections had talked about, threatened or even attempted secession. I guess they knew more about it then than we know about it now.
Maybe they shouldn't have fired on Ft. Sumpter. Heck, hindsight is 20/20. They shouldn't have fired on Ft. Sumpter. But I don't think that means Lincoln has the right to call up troops and invade the southland and Capt. Lyons sure didn't have the authority to do what he did in St. Louis.
But NO ONE had attempted to use coercion against the South. The South was attempting to use coercion against the rest of the country. If you are against coercion, that is what you should be saying you are against here.
So the South seized forts, Federal facilities such as Customs Houses and the New Orleans Mint. They seized arsenals. They used armed force against Federal troops. They withheld payment for debts due betwen private citizens of the South and private citizens of the North. They seized Federal monies (such as the funds in the Customs Houses, the cash on hand at the New Orleans Mint, and the bullion, gold and silver, in the Mint. Then they proceeded to make counterfeit United States money in the Mint they had seized, and used it as their own. They besieged Federal troops where they could not easily seize what they wanted by force. Eventually, they fired over 3,000 rounds of heavy artillery ammo into Ft. Sumter. In all of that time, the Fedral government and the people of the North had done essentially nothing to the people of the South. All of that abusive, aggressive Southern behavior happened first, and is the cause for what followed.
That is what makes all the stories about the South fighting to resist invaders so much empty noise. It didn't happen that way. Southerners by the tens of thousands had signed up long, long before any Federal troop did a thing. If you think not, explain where all those thousands of men in Confederate service came from, the ones besieging Ft. Pickens and Ft. Sumter in the Winter of 1860-61.
If someone wants to say a man who enlisted after the war started did so for these other reasons, maybe he has a case and maybe not. But Davis had called up over 30,000 troops before Lincoln called for a single one; he'd attacked Federal troops; he'd deliberately started the war. Pretending anything else is not believable.
On March 4, 1861, Lincoln is just taking the oath of office in Washington. The Confederate Congress in Montgomery has already authorized Jefferson Davis to call out over 100,000 men to serve in the Confederate Army, and Davis makes the first call at this time. He makes another in early April before he attacks Ft. Sumter. Clearly, the Confederates called for troops first, and used those troops to attack the United States, so why would anyone pretend Lincoln is at fault here?
So, the shootings at Va. Tech. was pure evil, BUT, what happened at Kent State was worse. How do you quantify that, Ozark Iron John?
You seem to be making a value judgement; that the death at Kent State outweighs the deaths at Va. Tech.
What I'm saying is that when the Government does it to its citizens, its worse. Is that so hard to understand?
Of course evil exists in the world. Two legged wolves that prey on the poor, sick and defenseless. Its our duty to arm ourselves and defend ourselves and each other against 'em.
But when our government turns its sights on US, it's a whole nother matter.
Is that so hard to understand?
You all walk around thinkin' government's good. We need more of it. I'm not so sure and I sure as heck don't want the USMC runnin' rampant in San Diego or San Antonio. No Way! No How! We can sort our differences out ourownselves without them West Pointers' assistance.
If the US gov't is more evil than mass murderers, Ozark Iron John, how can you stand to be a citizen of a country whose gov't is so evil? Surely your humanity would cry out against even paying your taxes, which supports such evil. As a law abiding citizen, are you not an accomplice in your gov'ts evil? All that is required for evil to triump, is for good men to do nothing.
Surely your humanity would cry out against even paying your taxes, which supports such evil.
Thus my statement earlier about coaxin' US towards sedition.
Is that what you're tryin' to do Opn? Are you tryin' to get me to spout off seditous sentiments against our government? Are you tryin' to get me to subvert our constitution?
I reckon you are tryin' to incite a riot!
Stop it, Opn. You're gonna get them DOJ/DOD/DHS FBI/CIA/NSA Internet Wheenies down on both of US.
First: All persons living in Cass, Jackson, and Bates counties, and in that part of Vernon county within the District, with the exception of those residing within one mile of Union-held towns and except those in that part of Kaw Township, Jackson county, north of Brush Creek and west of the Big Blue River, embracing Kansas City and Westport, are hereby ordered to move from their present places of residence within 15 days. Those who within that time establish their loyalty to the satisfaction of the commanding officer of the military station nearest their present place of residence, will received from him certificates stating that facts of their loyalty and the names by whom it can be shown. All who receive such certificates will be permitted to remove to any military station in this district or to any part of the state of Kansas, except all the counties on the eastern border of the state. All others shall remain out of the district.
Second: all grain or hay in the fields or under shelter in the District from which the inhabitants are required to move within reach of military stations, after the ninth of September will be taken to such stations and turned over to the proper officers there; and report of the amount so turned over made to the district headquarters specifying the names of all loyal owners and the amount of such produce taken from them. All grain and hay found in such district after the ninth of September next, not removed to such stations will be destroyed.
If that weren't a war crime against Southern civilians, nothing was!
Last edited by Ozark Iron John; 05-22-2007 at 04:45 PM.
Nope, just trying to establish how honest you are in your criticisms of the the USA. After all I, am not the one who knows the US gov't is more evil than mass murderers.
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