War Crimes Against Southern Civilians

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

I am sorely sick and tired of hearing how evil any man who wore the blue was... and now I'm seeing the slander pushed onto the modern soldier... I've come to expect it from you Battalion; but I thought better of Ozark.

We ain't got to "modern soldier" yet. Let's talk about them that served in the Indian Wars.


Chief Roman Nose at the Battle of Beecher Island.

Sand Creek. Camp Grant. Washeita. Wounded Knee. I don't have to slander the men of the United States Army. Their generals and their actions have done a fine job of that their own selves.

Don't get me wrong johan_steele. I'm an American and proud of it. I reckon dissent is a cornerstone of liberty. I may not like what you've got to say. It may be wrong and based on lies and half truths, but I'll defend your right to say it with my life. Especially when it comes to criticizing our government and its history of oppression against US.

"All men are created equal.....!" It don't seem to me like those rightous Yankees fightin' for the freedom of the black man gave two hoots for the freedom of the red man.

Just exactly what is it you reckon we swaped the Sioux for the Black Hills?

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

I can't speak for the entire Trans-Mississipi Theater. I can't even speak for that that happened north of the Missouri River. Some of you other like minded men are gonna have to stand up!

Did that kind of thing go on in North Carolina? Georgia? Texas or Tennessee?

Did you all ever hear Yankee Soliders playing "Stomp Seccessh!" or "Purge with Fire!" or "Razing the Town Square!?

How many of you all think them Yankee boys in Georgia didn't try "Stealin' a Kiss!"?

I'd like to hear from some of you other Southern minded men. Stand Up!

If I'm full-o-crap, say so. If these kinds of things went on in your neck of the woods, say that too.

[ole]

Let's talk about them that served in the Indian Wars.

Oh yes. Let's! (You know better than this, John.) Shall we talk about the Trail of Tears? The Seminole Wars? The number of reservations in Texas? The number of Rebs in the US Cavalry after the CW ceased?

Throwing the blame on the US Cavalry for actions against the American Indian simply overlooks or ignores historical facts. Ain't much nice to say about it today, but it was the civilian, north and south, that demanded their removal.

Please do not tear off in that direction again. If you'd like, I think General Discussions might be a more appropriate forum.

Ole

By the way, you are full of crap.

[ole]

Please don't misunderstand my intent. I am trying to maintain a position against a strong centralized national government. I'm not advocating for slavery. I'm not advocating for seccession. I'm not for Jeff Davis. I am against Abe Lincoln and the Radical Black Republicans.

This is another topic for the General Discussion Forum. This particular thread has to do with War Crimes Against Southern Civilians -- of which there were a great many. Some real, some having grown considerably in the telling, some imaginary.

Take 62,000 veterans of nearly four years of hard fighting (and seeing, first hand, the face of slavery); march them through the home ground of the people they'd been fighting; you'd expect a whole bunch more destruction than was actually commited. Wasn't it Shelby Foote who said something like that it was "Remarkable how well behaved Sherman's Army was"?

Take the same 62,000 men. What percentage would you expect to be dirty rotten scoundrels? And wouldn't the same percentage apply to the men in gray? Point being: among all men, you might expect some lawless bastards. Which is no excuse for either, but the idea that all the outlaws wore blue strains credulity.

And, a while back, you cited Columbia. Do get a copy of Sherman and the Burning of Columbia by Marion Brunson Lucas. This may be the most thorough study of that incident extant. Mr. Lucas dispassionately examines the event. If my memory serves, some of his troops certainly had a hand in some fire-starting and obstructing the troops who were fighting fires. The fact is, that bales of cotton had been lined up along the main street and set afire by retreating Confederates. (Wade Hampton is blamed for issuing the order, but often missed is his order rescinding the first. Unfortunately, the latter was either ignored or not received.)

A stiff wind from the west blew up that night and set off the conflagration. (Keep in mind that loose cotton made the city look like a snow storm had hit -- cotton was lodged in trees and shingles and anywhere else where it could be snagged.) When the bales re-ignited that first night, everything east of Main Street went up.

It's worthwhile to check out a map of the "burned district." Almost all of it is east of the street where the bales were smoldering and burning. Sherman officially burned something like 7 instillations of military value. Rowdies, drunk soldiers and released prisoners accounted for some additional blazes along with a goody amount of plundering and insult. But it remains that Sherman did not burn 2/3 of Columbia. As he said, and I believe him, "If I had intended to burn it, I'd have done a better job." (Or something like that.)

Trice intimated that Sherman might have been a bit more energetic in stopping the extraneous fires, and maybe have put a bit more energy into stopping the primary fires, but he didn't. So you can blame him for not caring enough about Columbia to try to save it. That, I'll buy.

Ole

[trice]

Originally Posted by Battalion

Not all soldiers were from salt-of-the-earth farm families.

Many were cut-throats from the big cities- New York, Chicago, etc. They continued to practice their "skills" during the war.

Sounds like Zach Wheat and the Louisiana Tigers terrifying Confederate civilians to me.

Regards,
Tim

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

We ain't got to "modern soldier" yet. Let's talk about them that served in the Indian Wars.

Just exactly what is it you reckon we swaped the Sioux for the Black Hills?
Lakota got screwed, so did the Kiowa and Cherokee, Seminoles, Commanche...oops those last three wouldn't have been tribes boned for the interest of the south would they? Where were the ancestrol lands of the Cherokee again?

Tell ya what, go look at what I've said about the subject.

The Lakota were among the finest fighting men on the North American continent and perhaps in the world, made the CS Army look like a bunch of sissies... and made the US Army look like ****ed fools. They also lasted quite a bit longer than the CS. And lets not start talking about the Apache.

Better men than you or I... I graduated from a reservation school, my Lakota name translates to "Windrunner" though for gods sake don't ask me to spell it. My best friends entire male family line are members of the warrior society, three of whom have taken scalps in the service of this nation. Still better men than you or I...

The Lakota had no love for WHITE people; and they didn't give a tinkers... about yank or reb. Kill em all and let god sort em. No quarter given and none asked. Not a bad idea IMHO.

The man in the picture was in North Africa, Sicily, Salerno and jumped into St Mere Engles and was near to cut in half by a German MG... care to wager what flag he willingly fought under? W/ children who have willingly and eagerly served under that flag. A better man than you or I.

Have a nice day.

Cak'iglaska iwategli.

[trice]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

...The man in the picture was in North Africa, Sicily, Salerno and jumped into St Mere Engles and was near to cut in half by a German MG... care to wager what flag he willingly fought under? W/ children who have willingly and eagerly served under that flag. A better man than you or I.

Have a nice day.

Cak'iglaska iwategli.

I remember my Dad telling me the toughest man he ever knew was an Apache who served with him in the 96th Division. The man had broken horses for a living before the war, and on Okinawa it took Dad, who was company first sergeant by that point, three days to talk that man into going back to an aid station after he'd been shot -- after all, it had only been a spent bullet, and they could see it in there under the skin. I don't think Dad was particularly close to him, but he liked him just fine when they were in combat, and that particularly included the day when the company (normal strength 192, but built up to about 220 for the landing at Okinawa) was down to seven men on the morning report and that Apache was still there with Dad.

Regards,
Tim

[Will Posey]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

Where were the ancestrol lands of the Cherokee again?

North Georgia, Southeastern Tennessee, Western North Carolina

I don't understand the point of the question.

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Will Posey

North Georgia, Southeastern Tennessee, Western North Carolina

I don't understand the point of the question.

Who benefited from their expulsion... the point was to show that like racism there are quite few NATIONAL sins. The treatment of the Native American being one of those. Some argue that the Native American suffered only at the whim and bequest of the North; not quite true and anyone who has looked at the period will know that.

From the very creation of this nation the Native American has been on the short end of the stick. And during that time the South controlled the political machine that made the decisions every bit as much as the north

[larry_cockerham]

The Cherokee and Creek put up a pretty good/bad fight before a few families were 'removed'. Families like my Harts and Sizemores stayed behind marrying whites and gently blending into the mountain landscape. We're still here/there. John Benge, to name one, was a general 'nuisance' to the white settlers/land robbers. As you know, the Cherokee had no desire to own the land, merely lived on it and respected it as the source of life. It's a shame the white settlers didn't notice the example.