War Crimes Against Southern Civilians

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by OpnDownfall

I can accept that outrageous flights of fantasy, can be used metaphorically, but on historical boards, reason, logic,and facts, usually suffice.

See'n how you asked so politely, I'll tell ya about one more little game the invaders liked to play around here.

"Stealin' a Kiss!"

Three or four of 'em would come ridin' in to the homestead about dark. Lookin' for contraband they could confiscate or horses they could press into service.

If they were just so fortunate as to find themselves a young Southern gal at home alone, without her ma or pa to chaparone, they'd commence to "Stealin' a Kiss!" She didn't have to wanta play neither. In fact, I reckon some of them Yankee boys from Illinios prefered it if'n she resisted a bit. It got their dander up. If you know what I mean.

Anyway, you don't hear too much about this kinda thing going on. Reconstruction Revisionist Historians like to sweep it under the carpet, but it happened. All too often.

[johan_steele]

Ozark... lots of good Lost Cause propoganda.

I suppose I rate as a "wild eyed" US soldier. Let's see, 3 day drunk at Mardi Gras, still missing 24 hours of that. Did some hard drinking and partying in Biloxi, Gulfport, Columbia, Charleston & Sumter SC, Jacksonville Fl, Fayetnam NC and a few other places down south. Hell, I drank my share, and probablly yours too. Worse thing I can think of ever having done to a Southerner was puking on his floor... though he deserved it selling a poor innocent GI like me boilermakers at $2.50 a hit.

7 years doing my job watching over this country... the idea that any US soldier I have ever known or served w/ would "run amok" in a US city is so offensive as to... never mind. In short it's a load of crap.

But I'll tell you what, I still like the real southerners I've met and conversed w/... hell I married one. Like any other geographic group of people there are good ones and their are bad ones. Military has the same and I rather suspect both groups have the good ones in the majority; the same was true in the 1860's. I'll trust a soldier before I'll trust a lawyer...

Better than a decade of reading letters and diaries... the established and legit cases of US soldiers commiting crimes against civilians are few and far between.

"Stealing a kiss"... mostly a crock. Rape was not a lightly treated offense and ****ed few men, north or south tolerated it. Quite a few men found themselves on the short end of a tall tree & short rope because of rape. If you listen to the Lost Cause most southerners today have blue coated ancestors. That is patently untrue.

"Stomp Secesch"... heard of it. Several incidents and some as described. Though at least one victim was a man who ****ed on a wounded Union soldier who was waiting for his train... a few observant Cav boys were less than amused and showed it. Gave the mans boots to the wounded soldier... after a long conversation.

Other incident I recall off hand involved two infantry men who watched a secesch beat on a former slave woman. That she was also their camp cook may have instigated both the womans former master (supposed gentleman) striking a woman and the boys violent reaction. The boys were a touch irate, beat the man pretty good, stripped him naked (down to his drawers) and sent him home. Next day or so they arrived at the plantation, threw everything out into the yard and burned the house. Only reason they didn't hang the man was they couldn't find him. Oh by the way, the camp cook died that night and those evil yankee soldiers gave the woman a decent burial.

Did nasty things happen, yes and they were the exception instead of the norm as you portray.

More often norm was Sherman's men feeding Savannah and giving the children of the city a Christmas... we soldiers still have a tendency to do that. And ironically, if it's a good humane thing a soldier does the media ignores it but it it can be construed as immoral or wrong the press is all over it. Things haven't changed much since the CW have they?

[trice]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

...
More often norm was Sherman's men feeding Savannah and giving the children of the city a Christmas... we soldiers still have a tendency to do that. And ironically, if it's a good humane thing a soldier does the media ignores it but it it can be construed as immoral or wrong the press is all over it. Things haven't changed much since the CW have they?

I have a good friend named "Fred" because American soldiers do things like you mention at the end here.

Fred's parent's were German, and Fred's Dad got captured somewhere out on the Russian Front. About 1948, the Russians turned loose the ones who were still living (roughly 10%) and Fred's father walked back from where they kicked him over the border to over near Cologne, where he had lived.

His old friends didn't recognize him when he passed them on the street. His wife nearly had a heart-attack when he showed up at the door. By 1949, not surprisingly, my friend Fred was on the way.

There was an American soldier who helped them with food and such. He didn't speak German; they didn't speak English. He rotated home before the child was born, and they decided to name their son after him for his kindness. But all they knew was that he called himself "Fred". They guessed, but didn't know that it was short for Fredrick or Frederick -- but honoring that man was important to them, too important to get it wrong. So my friend was baptized "Fred".

Regards,
Tim

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

Better than a decade of reading letters and diaries... the established and legit cases of US soldiers commiting crimes against civilians are few and far between.

Its funny how you guys are quick to come to the defense.

It may've happened once or twice, but it wasn't the norm. That danged Reb deserved it for beatin' up the (Oh, they would've used the "N" word.) Camp Cook.

"I can't recall. I don't remember. I don't think it happened that way Senator!"

Originally Posted by johan_steele

Things haven't changed much since the CW have they?

I'd say, NOT!

I can't speak for the entire Trans-Mississipi Theater. I can't even speak for that that happened north of the Missouri River. Some of you other like minded men are gonna have to stand up!

Did that kind of thing go on in North Carolina? Georgia? Texas or Tennessee?

Did you all ever hear Yankee Soliders playing "Stomp Seccessh!" or "Purge with Fire!" or "Razing the Town Square!?

How many of you all think them Yankee boys in Georgia didn't try "Stealin' a Kiss!"?

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

Its funny how you guys are quick to come to the defense. I will come to the defense of men who can no longer defend themselves against slander; especially when they were fighting men who deserve our respect. I hope 150 years down the road someone will do the same for me. Especially when the libel is founded on nothing more than rumor and the hateful exaggerations of the Lost Cause.

It may've happened once or twice, but it wasn't the norm. That danged Reb deserved it for beatin' up the (Oh, they would've used the "N" word.) Camp Cook. The N word used in the letter was Negress, Are you suggesting that the SOB deserved... what a pat on the back and good job chum? Good Christ I hope not. A bullet is too good for a coward who would beat on a woman. Many of the incidents had legit reasons or provocation for them happening. Somebody does something nasty to one of mine; I assure you there will be consequences. What would have been the point of reporting the owner to the local southern authorities? Nothing would have happened and you know it.
"I can't recall. I don't remember. I don't think it happened that way Senator!"

I cited two examples I recall off the top of my head that fitted what you describe. I'm not going to go digging through my rather poor notes. Besides I have the distinct feeling the word of a soldier would not be good enough for you. In short I'd be wasting my time. I have better things to do than satisfy those who would spit on soldiers.
I'd say, NOT!

I can't speak for the entire Trans-Mississipi Theater. I can't even speak for that that happened north of the Missouri River. Some of you other like minded men are gonna have to stand up! Neither can I as the Trans Mississippi is not my area of study; I have no doubt some real nastiness took place there, on both sides.

Did that kind of thing go on in North Carolina? Georgia? Texas or Tennessee?

Beat up Negress incident was in TN IIRC the winter of 63.

The urination on US WIA took place near to... don't recall. US boys invloved were out of Iowa.

Did you all ever hear Yankee Soliders playing "Stomp Seccessh!" or "Purge with Fire!" or "Razing the Town Square!?

How many of you all think them Yankee boys in Georgia didn't try "Stealin' a Kiss!"? I'd say the majority didn't; what will it take to make you understand that so many of those stories are exaggeration or outright lies? The majority of real scholars on the subject of Shermans march have come to that conclusion... Is real research not good enough, reading the letters & diaries of the men who were there not good enough? I suspect I know the answer.

Here, I'll give you another freebie about those evil soldiers. A Cav patrol was out hunting bushwackers and passed a company of Infantry on the road. Couple miles up the road they stopped at a farm to water their horses. Old lady of the house offered them some tea, in thanks they gifted her a pokesack of coffee. Tea was poisoned. Several of the men became very sick almost immedietly and several would die later. The Rebel bushwackers chose that moment to charge. Ill timed as the company of infantry chose that moment to come out of the woods and contributed a well timed volley emptying a couple saddles and dropping some horses. Infantry got the story from the little NEGRO guide that had been w/ the Cav as most of those troopers were too sick to give any kind of assistance. Couple of those infantrymen were used to tracking Indians... sorted out the sign and dicovered the bushwackers had been using the ladies barn. Took the lady out of her house, I doubt they were too gentle, and prepared to fire the house & barn. CS officer chose that time to come down the road w/ a flag of truce and demand that those men leave the old lady alone... amazing family resemblence between old lady and CS officer. CS officer was dismounted, old lady put on horse w/ flag and told it was a fair trade. Hanged the officer on the spot and burned the house & barn. Atrocity? I'm sure you'll see it that way. Point is the men could not bring themselves to hang or harm a woman even if she had murdered men.

I have spent more than 10 years reading every letter or diary of a western US or CS soldier I could get my paws on... well over 2000. I've read enough of these western men to tell you this: the majority were honest, God fearing folk who knew what it meant to work for a living on the farm. They generally liked children and frankly I think I would trust my daughter w/ most of them (CS or US). The men knew each other, they were from the same or nearby communities so many knew each others families and knew their sins might just be heard about by their wives, sisters & daughters.

My father, sister, father in law, several cousins & uncles and myself were soldiers... none of us raped or went wild on any civilians. Pure & simple US soldiers have a reputation around the world from the last century. US soldiers have a tendency to feed the populace, even the enemy populace, provide medical supplies etc. How many bridges, hospitals, water treatment facilities etc have been built by the US military? Any idea? Hint; a lot.
Your belief that soldiers are scum... take it you've never been one.

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

Your belief that soldiers are scum... take it you've never been one.

You'd be wrong.

The topic of this thread is "War Crimes Against Southern Civilians", but all I hear from you guys is how your poor little goody two shows Blue Boys are so slandered and maligned by us rotten Rebel Lost Causers. Me thinks you might protest a might too much!

"Singin' Lessons!"

How many of you Southern minded folks ever heard tell of Yankee solders giving Singin' Lessons to Southern Civilians?

"Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! His truth is marching on. Sing it Johnny! Sing it or else!"

Singin' Lessons would often lead to Stompin' Seccesh around here.

[Battalion]

Not all soldiers were from salt-of-the-earth farm families.

Many were cut-throats from the big cities- New York, Chicago, etc. They continued to practice their "skills" during the war.

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Battalion

Not all soldiers were from salt-of-the-earth farm families.

Many were cut-throats from the big cities- New York, Chicago, etc. They continued to practice their "skills" during the war.

And some of those from New Orleans, Richmond or Charleston were no better.

I never said all were pure as the driven snow and i believe you all know it. i also have nevedr said all soldiers who wore the blue were angels; they weren't. The MAJORITY were men and decent men at that.

I am sorely sick and tired of hearing how evil any man who wore the blue was... and now I'm seeing the slander pushed onto the modern soldier... I've come to expect it from you Battalion; but I thought better of Ozark.

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

You'd be wrong. W/ Memorial day a few days away you sure as hell could have fooled me.

The topic of this thread is "War Crimes Against Southern Civilians", but all I hear from you guys is how your poor little goody two shows Blue Boys are so slandered and maligned by us rotten Cowardly, as it is quite easy to slander the dead. Rebel Lost Causers. Me thinks you might protest a might too much! No, we don't protest enough, tell me the last time the bastards in the media praised the US soldier, then look in the mirror and tell me the last time the Lost Cause crowd praised the US soldier. And bloody well do it w/ a straight face.

I'll be saluting the graves of men far better than you or I on Monday, their memories deserve better than the slander so eagerly tossed out by the Lost Cause. If you want to place yourself in a position to toss mud upon yourself and the men who served beside you... Well I hope you have a nice memorial day but please don't spread your bile to those who neither want or deserve it.

Veterans deserve better than that; that includes those who died defending that flag. Those who worship upon the altar of the Lost Cause hate so much... men and women far better than they.

The Lost Cause and it's cronies honor everything the flag I served under opposes. Keep it; I'll take my US, warts and all, as it is a lot cleaner than any other nation on the globe.

Keep your Michelob... I'll stick w/ scotch. I'll even raise a toast in thanks to your service but I will fight the efforts to tear down this country w/ every fibre of my being. I took an oath to do so; I take my word seriously.

[johan_steele]

I try to honor the men who did the fighting and dieing; I read their words their diaries and letters at every chance.

The Lost Cause was largely formed of those who did most of their fighting in the papers if at all. How do I know this? because the veterans, the men who had chewed the same mud got on as well as they did after the war.

Civilians and stay behinders couldn't understand... and their hatred has been kept in the forefront. Thankfully, real scholarship has come along and showed most of the bile spewed by the Lost Cause as nothing more than clever propoganda. The tragedy to me is when otherwise intelligent people so willingly gobble up and repeat Lost cause rhetoric, men and women that should know better. People who are intelligent enough to ask question... except about the Lost Cause and its garbage. garbage that IMHO brought us Jim Crow, segregation and the anti-war movement among other things.

Give me the words of the MEN who did the fighting and dieing, not these mewley mouth wannabes. Give me real letters & diaries.

Battalion; don't bother as I no longer trust it not to be cut n pasted so far out of context as to be libel. Ozark... please look to the words of the men of the day; they are available by the thuosands and they contradict the idea that the average blue coat got his jollies raping his way across the south. He went south to fight a war and win it, then he went home and picked his life back up as good as he could. Period.

Atrocities happened, but they were the extreme, not the norm. I've seen the satelite images and met the refugees of real atrocities; I've spoken w/ men who survived Dachau and Sobibor... the South never saw a Holocaust and to claim otherwise cheapens the real horrors out there.

Great men met at Appomatox and everywhere the CS soldier surrendered. They were fighting men surrendering to other fighting men... the cowards and stay behinders were all in politics and back to home screaming that the soldiers hadn't fought hard enough. The men who chewed the same dirt and shared the same privations knew otherwise. If not we would look like S America, the Far East & Balkans where men fight simply because they don't even remember why anymore.