Southern Aristorcracy

[larry_cockerham]

Originally Posted by OpnDownfall

There are some who know in the minds what they mean, but cannot articulate it very well to those around them.
OIJ needs to 'reread' his last paragraph.
The fact remains, that given the slave owners/leaders of the south were determined to not free their slaves under any circumstances. Then, whatever any other reason the avg. johnny reb might have been fighting for, he was Also fighting to ensure that the confederacy, remained a society based on slavery.

Good afternoon. As you direct OI John earlier, please re-read this paragraph. Your point is well taken, as I, alas, have the same problem, so this is a response, not a criticism or outright argument. Your statement above "the fact remains, that given the slave owners/leaders of the south were determined to not free their slaves" is a rather broad statement. Leaders and slave owners weren't necessarily the same folks, nor did they necessarily think alike. As to their intentions regarding freeing slaves, that would have been a highly personal, individual decision, would it not? Your conclusion then is a bit flawed. The impact or result of Johnny Reb's efforts might have helped ensure as a goal that the confederacy remained a society based on slavery, BUT that certainly doesn't mean that the individual Johnny Reb intended that result. A general broad statement to your effect is less than logical. Neil thinks I'm dumb, but I can live with that. I just don't believe Johnny Reb was that big of a jerk. He was whizzed about other stuff.

[OpnDownfall]

Broad statements are not necessisarily incorrect because of their being broad. For instance, from the historical record,what inference can be drawn from the known fact, that in the last few mo's (wks even) of the confederacy's existence, that both the Va. Legislature and the confederate congress would not free their slaves, even as they volunteered slaves to fight as confederate soldiers, as a last resort to stave off the final destruction of the CSA?
The fact that one did not 'Intend' to kill anyone, while attempting to rob a conveniance store, does not mean one is not guilty of murder.
Before and During the war there was much talk of fighting to the last man to be Free of northern rule. But Little (or none) about freeing slaves to secure independence.
Lincoln and the north concluded during the war, that emancipation was a necessary adjunct to the winning of the war. Davis, came to the same conclusion, but but the slave ologarchy in position of power throughout the south refused. There would/could be no confederacy without slavery.

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by matthew mckeon

Just think about what you posted for a minute. Think about how it sounds.

I'll admit to being not too good at sayin' what I mean to say. I'll admit to putting my foot right squarely into my mouth and twisting it vigorously from time too time.

I am a victim of the Public School System in this country and my uncles were not too smart in the first place.

I regret that I might've hurt somebody's feelings with my little analogy. Human Beings are not like dogs and/or horses. Dogs are man's best friends and horses are his greatest ally.

Human beings ...

[OpnDownfall]

Whatever the 'other' reasons the avg rebel soldier may have been fighting, whether home, family, friends, neighbors, independent south etc., etc., the fact is, that If the south emerged victorious from the war, those other reasons may OR May not have survived the war, But, the Southern Aristocracy was determined that slavery would survive, or there would be no CSA.

[chadutes]

Boys, I've got to jump in on this one. I believe the harsh treatment of the blacks were not only caused by the southern folks, but by the majority of the folks living at that time. I often look back to the NY Draft Riots, thinking about a group of young boys pushing an old black man down to the ground then thrusting a knife deep into his chest. I wonder where those boys got their hate from! Maybe it was from their Daddy's, because they felt that the black man would take his job for less pay.

Chadutes................

[larry_cockerham]

Originally Posted by OpnDownfall

Whatever the 'other' reasons the avg rebel soldier may have been fighting, whether home, family, friends, neighbors, independent south etc., etc., the fact is, that If the south emerged victorious from the war, those other reasons may OR May not have survived the war, But, the Southern Aristocracy was determined that slavery would survive, or there would be no CSA.

My point in all this is that the southern aristocracy, if there was such a thing, or group of folks, weren't thinking for the common soldier or citizen. Even with the result of a Southern "victory" in the war, these 'aristrocratic' folks would have eventually been thrown out on their pointed heads and pompous *****. (censor where are you?). I contend slavery was doomed regardless of the war's results, just a matter of a long time. Racism, the real culprit in the war, was still rampant regardless of the military events. What mechanism and industrialization didn't cure, surely to Goodness, human kindness would eventually have taken care of. Eventually being the key word.

[cw1865]

Loyalty is largely a function of birth

[Dred]

Originally Posted by Ozark Iron John

I'd like to ask you guys, that dog sledder that races across the Yukon, even to get medicine to dieing children, he beats them dogs. He pushes 'em to their limits. Heck, he runs some of 'em to death.

Is he "beating" 'em for sport? Is he "evil" because of it?

I don't think so.

He knows if he don't push 'em, they'll end up out there in the DEAD of night starvin' and freezin' to death. He knows if he don't get through, them kids are gonna die of Yellow Fever.

He knows he's being hard on his dogs, but ......

And that teamster that's driving that six horse team across the desert, even tryin' to out pace those Cheyenne Dogsoldiers or Kansas Ruffians, he beats them horses. He pushes 'em to their limits. Heck, he runs some of 'em to death.

Is he "beating" 'em for sport? Is he "evil" because of it?

I don't think so.

He knows if he don't push 'em, they'll end up out there in the DEAD of night starvin' and dieing of thirst. He knows if he don't get through, them Dogsoldiers are gonna cook him on a spit or them bandits are gonna string him up.

He knows he's being hard on his horses, but ......

Now I ask you, how much more does that slave master care about his slaves? More than Dogs! More than Horses! Human Beings! How much more?

A lot sir. A lot more.

Stop sayin' that Johnny Reb was a evil task master for the black African slaves in his control. It ain't so. Americans take good care of their stuff. They always have and they always will.

Them black African slaves that ended up in the West Indies and Central and South America had it far worse and its shameful how you people want to whine and complain about the piddly assed BS that happend here 150 plus years ago. If you've got a complaint about the treatment of slaves, I suggest you focus your attention on them that was truly evil and leave Johnny Reb the Heck alone.

Actually you are completley wrong. I'm not even talking about the fact that you may or may not have compared slaves to dogs... I don't think it was your intent. However, your conclusions that slave owners cared for the slaves life more then these men cared about their dogs is dead wrong. All they cared about was subjugating the black man and keeping him in his place of inferirority. THIS is why southerners didn't want slavery opposed in anyway. It attacked their every standard of what southern manhood was all about. True that not all of them owned slaves, but that didin't matter. ANY white man could come up to ANY slave wether he owned them or not with the expectation of being OBEYED because he was WHITE. The slave was worse then a dog. That dog sledder getting medicine to a dying child in the Yukon knew what his dogs must do for the survival of those sick. Who's survival was at stake if the slave owner did not beat that slave? Or if that slave did not do enough work for that day? Who was being hurt if a slave tried to run away because he would rather be free then forced to work his fingers quite literaly to the bone and not have a single benefit from it?

DONT YOU DARE claim that beacuse slavery was not as bad here as in the indies that it was somehow OK. Don't even think to demean it by calling it piddly assed BS. You think it was piddly ased BS when a slave was hobbled for running away? Or when he was forcefully seperated from his wife and children because his time spent taking care of them was less time in the fields? If you can't see for yourself that slavery was moraly disgusting in every way no matter how strongly enforced, then you are as moraly reprehensible as those who owned slaves in the first place.

You can print your crap in blue or green or magenta for all I give a ****, but this isn't the first time you have tried to insinuate that slavery was somehow not a big deal... try telling that to the men who were forcefully taken from their homes and tribes in Africa, put in shackles on a ship across 3000 miles of ocean and forced to work himself to death so that those holy southern men you idolize so much could feel a little bit better about themselves. I've held my tongue for a very long time but this is the catalyst. And as far as your being a victim of public schools that is no excuse! And your 3 not too smart uncles... we each make our own bed now lie in it! Take responsibility for yourself for a change instead of shelling off your woes onto other people. I went to public school.. None of my uncles, aunts, parents or siblings went to college.. that doesn't mean I couldn't better MYSELF and the same goes for you. The only difference is you are too afraid to see the truth because it might burst the fragile bubble you have built up around yourself. And too afraid to admit that your ancestors could fight for somethign as evil as slavery, while perpetuating the same morale ineptitude they had 150 years ago.

[Ozark Iron John]

That's a personal attack.

If I was to say somthing like that to anyone on this forum, I'd be sanctioned for it. Put in lock down for three days or worse, banned.

Dred can attack me without the moderators saying one thing too him.

How's that?

[Dred]

probably cause I just put it there like.. 10 minutes ago and they haven't seen it yet... Get off your high horse.. nobody is persecuting you...