Southern Aristorcracy

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by Battalion

The next time you post anything complimentary of Sherman...
I will reply that you must approve of shooting civilians, burning cities and wiping out Indian villages.
Is that a deal?

Even Hitler, the most evil man in history, came up with the idea for Volkswagen and the autobahn. If we approve of Volkswagen and the autobahns, does that mean we have to approve of Auschwitz too? Of course not!

You see this with quite a few figures in the past, including Sherman, but even look at Jefferson; in 1776 he came up with the idea for the Virginia Constitution that only white men with 50 acres of land could vote!

I wonder to what extent we should judge people by the standards of their day versus the standards of today?

[Battalion]

Originally Posted by trice

OK, you acknowledge that your statement about the military was wrong, that flogging was ended in PA in 1790, and that the last one in CT was in 1828. It seems you are pointing to DE as the example -- a slave state in 1860, right? Any other examples you want to point out at the time of the Civil War?

Tim

"...a miserable wretch, who claimed the name of Samuel R. Dann, was caught with three stolen mules, tried and sentenced to receive "twenty-five" upon his back. But about nineteen of these could be administered, the 'limb of the law' having fainted away after applying that number, and no one else being willing to take his place. This shows that our variegated population is not entirely destitute of finer feelings."

New York Times, 3 September 1860

"While here [Cairo, IL], we saw one of the many evidences of radical inconsistency....I saw a brawny-looking specimen of the Puritan race, laying on unmercifully, with a large horse-whip, to several Negroes who were basking in the sunshine; he yelling, cursing, and slashing, alternately....
I never saw a slave, in my years of experience in the South, so brutally beaten, even when convicted of a crime, and it seems strange that such a spectacle attracts so little attention in the free State of Illinois....the slave has merely changed masters."

Capt. Joseph Barbiere, CSA (Prisoner of War)
Scraps from the Prison Table, p.272

[larry_cockerham]

Originally Posted by unionblue

Larry,



No, Larry, it isn't. There are too many people about who are doing their damdest to say what it 'wasn't' about.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Hello, Neil. Too hot in Tennessee for much of an argument, nor would I want to.

Seems to me there must be a balance there somewhere. What it was, it was. What it wasn't, however insignificant and unimportant to the majority of folks, it wasn't. Both had to exist and did exist.

Even in today's world, a minority deserves some recognition. I'm not attemping to 'do my damdest'; just point out a position in which I believe. I'm enjoying and learning much from the 'majority' position, hence I eagerly look for your opinions.

[cw1865]

I'm very much pro-union, but even I find it difficult to imagine non-slaveholding whites in non-slave majority states to fight for slavery, but I also find it difficult to imagine why they would vote for secession either.

[Ozark Iron John]

I'd like to ask you guys, that dog sledder that races across the Yukon, even to get medicine to dieing children, he beats them dogs. He pushes 'em to their limits. Heck, he runs some of 'em to death.

Is he "beating" 'em for sport? Is he "evil" because of it?

I don't think so.

He knows if he don't push 'em, they'll end up out there in the DEAD of night starvin' and freezin' to death. He knows if he don't get through, them kids are gonna die of Yellow Fever.

He knows he's being hard on his dogs, but ......

And that teamster that's driving that six horse team across the desert, even tryin' to out pace those Cheyenne Dogsoldiers or Kansas Ruffians, he beats them horses. He pushes 'em to their limits. Heck, he runs some of 'em to death.

Is he "beating" 'em for sport? Is he "evil" because of it?

I don't think so.

He knows if he don't push 'em, they'll end up out there in the DEAD of night starvin' and dieing of thirst. He knows if he don't get through, them Dogsoldiers are gonna cook him on a spit or them bandits are gonna string him up.

He knows he's being hard on his horses, but ......

Now I ask you, how much more does that slave master care about his slaves? More than Dogs! More than Horses! Human Beings! How much more?

A lot sir. A lot more.

Stop sayin' that Johnny Reb was a evil task master for the black African slaves in his control. It ain't so. Americans take good care of their stuff. They always have and they always will.

Them black African slaves that ended up in the West Indies and Central and South America had it far worse and its shameful how you people want to whine and complain about the piddly assed BS that happend here 150 plus years ago. If you've got a complaint about the treatment of slaves, I suggest you focus your attention on them that was truly evil and leave Johnny Reb the Heck alone.

[matthew mckeon]

OIJ,
1. You just compared people to dogs and horses.

2. How can you think this way in 2007? If you want to say, heck most CS soldiers weren't slaveowners, or if you want to argue that slavery wasn't the central issue, OK. I may disagree with the last point. But if you're going to go the "slavery ain't so bad" route your going in a bad direction.

[matthew mckeon]

Originally Posted by Battalion

Again, here we go with the false insinuation game.

The next time you post anything complimentary of Sherman...
I will reply that you must approve of shooting civilians, burning cities and wiping out Indian villages.

Is that a deal?

Actually it isn't a false insinuation, because you then went on to make posts saying basically, "It's worse elsewhere," as I said in my post. I'm a prophet.

By the way, the examples you quoted don't contradict my point that slavery was worse than freedom, but really, what's the use?

[Ozark Iron John]

Originally Posted by matthew mckeon

You just compared people to dogs and horses.

I suggest you re-read my post.

I ask you, how much more does that slave master care about his slaves? More than Dogs! More than Horses! Human Beings! How much more?

A lot sir. A lot more.

I believe I made my sentiments with regards to that matter very clear. Human beings are a lot more important than dogs and/or horses. A lot more, sir.

I ain't trying to say "slavery ain't so bad". I never said nothing like it. I resent your suggesting that I did.

What I am saying is, Johnny Reb wasn't that evil a slave master as far as slave masters go. In fact, in light of times in which he found himself, we was a pretty good one. Especially as compared to those slave masters in the West Indies and Central and South America.

[matthew mckeon]

I'm afraid "slavery ain't so bad," is exactly the point you made. It was worse somewhere else, and "Johnny Reb isn't an evil slavemaster"..."takes good care of his stuff."

Just think about what you posted for a minute. Think about how it sounds.

I believe you when you write that you care more about people than dogs and horses. But is that much of an accomplishment?

[OpnDownfall]

There are some who know in the minds what they mean, but cannot articulate it very well to those around them.
OIJ needs to 'reread' his last paragraph.
The fact remains, that given the slave owners/leaders of the south were determined to not free their slaves under any circumstances. Then, whatever any other reason the avg. johnny reb might have been fighting for, he was Also fighting to ensure that the confederacy, remained a society based on slavery.