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  #291  
Old 05-23-2007, 05:31 PM
Battalion's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpnDownfall
Slavery was the very reason that there was a Civil War in the first place. Without slavery, there was no reason for secession, thus no reason for a civil war.
The North cared nothing about slaves.
The war they waged was for their own self-interest.
Lands...
Money...
Power...
............-that's what the war was about.

"Those side issues of [slaves], State rights, conciliation, outrages, cruelty, barbarity, bankruptcy, subjugation, &c., are all idle and non-sensical. The only principle in this war is, which party can whip."

"When the people of the South tried to rule us through the negro, and became insolent, we cast them down, and on that question we are strong and unanimous. Neither cotton, the negro, nor any single interest or class should govern us."

William T. Sherman

"Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this as of many other evils"

Charles Dickens
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  #292  
Old 05-23-2007, 05:46 PM
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Default Southern Aristocrats

Sorry, Battalion, but Sherman AND Dickens, are both wrong. Their notions of the causes of the war are, in fact, the side issues to Slavery.
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  #293  
Old 05-23-2007, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpnDownfall
Sorry, Battalion, but Sherman AND Dickens, are both wrong. Their notions of the causes of the war are, in fact, the side issues to Slavery.
Sherman was a general fighting a war. He is simply saying "Forget about what caused it and all these issues. What we need to do now is to win the war."

Dickens -- well, Dickens had made one trip to America in the years before. He was angry at Americans because the publishers there were selling his books and not paying him royalties. Since most publishers were in the North, he seems to have had a grudge with the North.

Regards,
Tim

Last edited by trice; 05-23-2007 at 09:38 PM.
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  #294  
Old 05-23-2007, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Lands...
Money...
Power...
That's why the US fired on Ft Sumter? Oh wait; they didn't start the ball rolling the CS did.

It wasn't about slavery in the minds of the secesion pushers... really as the various Secession causes say otherwise. But once again the words of the men who were there and disagree w/ your premise aren't good enough.

Land... absolutely, how many loans disapeared after secession? Any idea?

Money... again absolutely how many millions were seized from US mints & commerce cutters etc.?

Power... once again correct. Political Power both perceived & actual. A republican democracy is not conduitive to continued power when those who want to keep it see they are no longer a majority. Davis made President after all, got something he had been angling for his whole life.
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Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
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  #295  
Old 05-23-2007, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Your statement is nonsense.
Only if one considers the truth to be nonsense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The views of the vast majority of people in the North was that of white supremacy.
Do I need to quote Lincoln? Sherman?...etc...etc...
Please show me where they said the cornerstone of the United States was slavery and white supremacy.

Regards,
Cash
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  #296  
Old 05-23-2007, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Well that's strange...
...because it was a Supreme Court dominated by Northerners (most with New England roots) that made Jim Crow and segregation the law of the land.

Yet another false claim. Have you ever read a real history book in your life?

The US Supreme Court didn't make Jim Crow and segregation the law of the land. They allowed the concept of "separate but equal" that the SOUTHERN states implemented, saying it satisfied the requirements of the 14th Amendment. Your statement is completely false and deceptive, since it implies that after Plessy v. Ferguson every state was required to implement segregation. Those who actually know their history know that's not the case.

And they never claimed the cornerstone of the United States was slavery and white supremacy.

Regards,
Cash

Last edited by cash; 05-23-2007 at 10:04 PM.
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  #297  
Old 05-23-2007, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The North cared nothing about slaves.
Those who know the first thing about this time period know that "the North" didn't start the war. The confederates were the ones who fired on Fort Sumter. Your red herring is just another dishonest attempt to try to deflect attention away from the slavemongers who seceded and started a war for slavery.

Regards,
Cash
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  #298  
Old 05-24-2007, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
The US Supreme Court didn't make Jim Crow and segregation the law of the land. They allowed the concept of "separate but equal" that the SOUTHERN states implemented, saying it satisfied the requirements of the 14th Amendment.

Regards,
Cash
You are correct in that it allowed this practice...but are woefully ignorant to believe that it was only implemented in the South.
No segregation in Boston? Chicago? Philadelphia? Detroit?...etc...etc...
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POWER & MONEY

"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."

New York Times, 27 September 1861
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  #299  
Old 05-24-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
Those who know the first thing about this time period know that "the North" didn't start the war. The confederates were the ones who fired on Fort Sumter. Your red herring is just another dishonest attempt to try to deflect attention away from the slavemongers who seceded and started a war for slavery.

Regards,
Cash
You know that Lincoln provoked the war. You know this.
Why do you continue with this neo-Radical BS?
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POWER & MONEY

"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."

New York Times, 27 September 1861

Last edited by Battalion; 05-24-2007 at 11:18 AM.
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  #300  
Old 05-24-2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
Please show me where they said the cornerstone of the United States was slavery and white supremacy.
Actually, we've been talking a lot about Dred Scott lately and I've been thinking on it. It seems to me the decision of the Taney Court -- certainly the opinion written by Chief Justice Taney -- was that the United States was built on a cornerstone of white supremacy and slavery, or something close to it.

But I note that the people of the North were outraged by that decision, that it led to a surge in popularity of the Republican Party, and served to unify those who opposed slavery into a cohesive force. That seems solid evidence that the people of the North as a group were opposed to this concept, and tends to rebut everything Battalion wants to imply.

OTOH, the people of the South seem to have been relieved or happy with Dred Scott. We can understand why they would be, in a practical sense, because it tended to safeguard their property. Personally, I think that foolish, because the decision actually tossed out the way state courts had been dealing with the "once free, always free" concept even in the slave states, thus trampling on the concept of "state's rights" yet again.

The two dissenting opinions, by Justices McLean and Curtis, seem much better for a "states' rights" advocate than Taney's crushing of all ability to interfere with slavery, no matter the source. To Taney, slavery must be preserved above all, and the United States is a place of white supremacy.

For those who wonder about such things, Justice John McLean was an ambitious Ohio man who during a long career was affiliated with everything and everybody: an anti-Jackson Democrat associated with Calhoun, a pro-Jackson Democrat who later broke with Jackson, an Antimason, a Whig, a Free Soiler, and a Republican. A devout methodist who saw no conflict between politics and religion. Considered a pro-War Hawk nationalist at the beginning, he was later closely associated with "states' rights" decisions. Considered a strong anti-slavery man, he was outvoted in Prigg v. Pennsylvania (1842) -- but also rejected attorney Seward's argument that a "higher law" allowed a man to harbor fugitive slaves in Jones v. Van Zandt (1847), so he did not allow his position to completely override his understanding of the law. Essentially, an ambitious politican-judge who wanted to be President, but seems to have done a reasonable job of restraining himself in his decisions.

McLean was considered a candidate for the 1860 Republican Presidential nomination, and actually received 12 votes at the convention's first ballot. Lincoln indicated his support for McLean at one point in late 1859, when he did not think of himself as a viable candidate. But McLean sickened over the "Winter of Secession", and died April 4, 1861; imagine the chaos if he actually had been elected.

Justice Benjamin R. Curtis was Rhode Island born, a Boston Whig lawyer recommended for the Supreme Court by Daniel Webster. He has left three major legal feats behind him.

The first was in his first year on the Supreme Court, when he wrote the majority opinion for Cooley v. Board of Wardens (1852), a landmark case for the Commerce Clause of the Constitution and national regulation. Justice McLean wrote a dissenting opinion favoring "states' rights", but Curtis' opinion is essentially the law of the land to this day.

The second was Dred Scott v Sanford. While Justice McLean's opinion seems more eloquent, Justice Curtis' opinion contains better research and more powerful legal logic. Objectively viewed , I think it refutes most of what Scott has to say about the denial of citizenship to blacks, and gives many examples of where negroes exercised the rights of citizens. Curtis resigned from the Supreme Court amidst the rancor following the Dred Scott decision, depriving that body of a powerful legal mind as the crisis of secession and war hurtled down upon the people.

The third came a decade later. Curtis had returned to Boston and resumed his legal practice. He was chosed as one of Andrew Johnson's defense attorneys for his impeachment case before Congress. In that role, Curtis managed to convince the members of the Senate that that impeachment was exclusively a judicial, not a political, proceeding, a trial of and not a vote of confidence in the president. That is how it is still viewed today.

Curtis supported the North in the Civil War, but wrote critically of Lincoln's use of power in the Emancipation Proclamation and the denial of habeas corpus, so he might have supported Taney on that if he had remained in the Court. He opposed Lincoln's re-election in 1864.

Regards,
Tim

Last edited by trice; 05-25-2007 at 08:33 PM.
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