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  #51  
Old 04-05-2007, 02:58 PM
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Battalion,

You quote above:

Quote:
I think if you check my reply you will notice I did not make any claim.
Since you did not specifically reply to either me or trice concerning any reference to the 1st Louisiana Native Guard serving in a combat role with Confederate forces, am I now to assume you agree with the premise that this group did NOT serve in a combat role with the Confederate army?

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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  #52  
Old 04-05-2007, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Sure do. I have already told you I will give sources to you, and what you have to do first. No one really knows the number
Thank you. That's what I wanted to know.

I already have all the other info you posted...

...and more.
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  #53  
Old 04-05-2007, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
I already have all the other info you posted...
...and more.
Excellent! As soon as you've isolated the juicy bits, I'll look for them
Ole
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  #54  
Old 04-05-2007, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Thank you. That's what I wanted to know.

I already have all the other info you posted...

...and more.
Ah. Another one of your standard attempts to chop off what was said to you and avoid being forthright. From what you say here, you know that you are trying to imply things that are not so. Why bother? Why not just come out and admit what you are doing?

Tim

Last edited by trice; 04-05-2007 at 04:32 PM.
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  #55  
Old 04-05-2007, 07:11 PM
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Union propaganda?

http://37thtexas.org/html/laguard.html



uhhh... no.
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  #56  
Old 04-05-2007, 08:12 PM
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I think Trice & Neil have replied for me... w/ more tact than I am capable of at the moment. Driving in a blizzard Mon-Tues accounts for some of that along w/ consistant 12 hour shifts.

The Louisiana Historical society has a listing of all arms issued in 1861 & I believe 1862; after that their records become incomplete at best. If I am mistaken and the 1st LA Native Guards is listed as receiving ANY arms from the state or CS govt's please list a source I can reference.

Alabama has a similar listing, Todd's American Military Equipage Vol 3 has this. Spent $70 for Vol 2 & 3 last weekend... stil haven't decided if it was a worthwhile purchase. Vol 3 only covers states A-C (both US & CS) but I recall seeing the LA Ordnance reports aseveral years ago. At one time they were available through the LSU site along w/ their excellent collection of diaries & letters. Site disapeared a couple years ago.

For what it's worth. Louisiana had a few Hall Rifles, large number of M1816/22 conversions & M1842, A few M1855's & about 5000 M1841's of various versions. The newest arms mostly went east to those units shiped to the ANV, the M1841's to units w/ the most political pull and the balance of the rest to arm various units... enough for about 2/3 of the units raised. IIRC The P53 & Austrians arms had not been imported in any real numbers yet; though some had been privately purchased by various militia units prior. The P53 & other quality European arms didn't really hit the west in bulk till just prior to Shiloh & I don't know off hand if any real numbers were in the hands of Louisiana troops.

The arms available to South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Arkansas & Virginia are probably the most accurately recorded Texas arms can be fairly accurately inferred from what was in various arsenals and those captured from the Regulars... as a note at least 150 M1855's seized by Texans had barrels filled w/ recycled whiskey; courtesy of a ****ed off (pun intended) Ord Sgt & his compatriots. To their credit, they refused to surrender sober. Louisiana records were pretty loose after 62 but quite accurate and complete prior.

As I'm away from home at the moment you'll have to wait for a source list; though I posted a list of CW Arms books I own on another thread. You'll find them there w/ a simple search.
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  #57  
Old 04-05-2007, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Union propaganda?
http://37thtexas.org/html/laguard.html
uhhh... no.
Guess the author of the article missed the original picture from which the artist's poster was derived. He started with the faked picture of the Guard and backed through the progression, stopping at the 2nd generation poster.

So we have, instead of the poster coming from a Pennsylvania photo, it was taken from the picture of the 1st Louisiana Guard and the Yankees made a recruitment poster of it.

Go figure.

Did I welcome you aboard yet?
Ole
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  #58  
Old 04-05-2007, 09:37 PM
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Forged evidence doesn't automatically disprove a event. In fact there is an excellent discussion of faked World War One photos on the "Airminded" website worth looking at.

However, the photo in this case is obviously forged and everyone admits that. If the 37thtexas website author linked above is going to try to defend it, then I would distrust anything that site produced.

By the way, what are we arguing about with the "1st native guards" anyway? I mean, what is the issue at hand?

Last edited by matthew mckeon; 04-05-2007 at 09:40 PM.
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  #59  
Old 04-06-2007, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew mckeon
By the way, what are we arguing about with the "1st native guards" anyway? I mean, what is the issue at hand?
Generally speaking, anyone who wants to discuss the topic of "Black Confederates" ends up discussing the Louisiana Native Guards because there are very few verifiable examples of "Black Confederate" units to go on: the Louisiana Native Guards, a company in Mobile, some Partisan Rangers in Louisiana, maybe one or two others. None of those units was ever accepted into service by the Confederate government.

The *ONLY* verifiable example of a definite "Black Confederate" unit accepted by the Confederate government is 2 companies of infantry (total about 100 men) who can be placed at 3 locations in Virginia in a 15 day period in late March and April of 1865. (The three sightings: marching through Richmond one day in March; deploying as a wagon guard during the retreat to Appomattox; digging entrenchments in Farmville during the retreat to Appomattox.)

The reason there are no other verifiable examples is that it was illegal under Confederate law to enlist or conscript blacks, slave or free, as soldiers for most of the war. An exception to that was passed in 1861 allowing for blacks to be brought in as musicians or cooks -- traditional slave duties to many Southerners. After bitter debate, the Confederate Congress finally passed a law allowing blacks to serve as soldiers in other capacities in 1865 (March 24 or so). Even then, with General Lee in support and the Confederacy crashing down about their ears, about 1/3rd of the Confederate Congress voted against allowing slaves to serve as soldiers.

There was a doctor in Richmond, in the Army hospitals, who had been pushing for this and who had formed a group out of blacks working in the hospitals. They were accepted immediately, which is where the 2 companies referred to came from. General Lee, then the commanding general of the Army, did send out orders and recruiting officers for this, but no other "Black Confederate" unit is known to have formed. In at least one case, it is known that the orders arrived after the local Confederate forces had surrendered. Lee surrendered about 16 days after the Confederate Congress passed the law, so there really was no time to recruit, equip and train the units.

The Louisiana Native Guards did exist during the Civil War as a Louisiana Militia unit when the Confederacy was starting. This makes them impossible to ignore for any who discuss "Black Confederates".

They started forming with a meeting in March of 1861, were accepted by the Governor of that state in May (22nd?) when he appointed Henry D. Ogden (white) to be their commander and Lt. Col. At no time do they seem to have been issued arms from the state or the Confederate government. At no time do they seem to have ever served in the field until Farragut steamed up the river to seize New Orleans. In 1862, the state legislature passed a new law, enacting conscription for "white males", and disbanding all militia units not accepted into the state Volunteer units as of February 15. The Louisiana Native Guards officially were no longer in existence at that point. On March 24, with Louisiana being stripped of armed defenders to meet the crisis to the North (Grant's Henry & Donelson Campaign, the advance down the Mississippi under Pope, the fall of Nashville, frantic fortification at Vicksburg, Grant's arrival at Shiloh), the Governor seems to have alerted/reinstated this unit in the state forces (technically illegal, but it was an emergency). There is still no evidence of them being armed by any authority, state or Confederate.

When Farragut teamed past the forts, the Confederate Army withdrew from New Orleans to make it an "open city" (also because it looked to Lovell to be indefensible and a death trap for his army). All that was left were whatever militia and local defense forces groups the city had. The Louisiana Native Guard was one of these. They seem to have been assigned to the area by Esplanade in the French Quarter; supposedly about 300 showed up. After the surrender of the downriver forts (April 28), Farragut demanded the surrender of the city, the mayor rushed to accept, and the Louisiana Native Guards disbanded again. Ben Butler moved troops into the city.

After about a month or so, the Creole/Black leaders began to tell Union authorities that they had been more-or-less compelled to serve in the forces against them and would like to volunteer for the Union. Butler, not a supporter of black troops (he'd argues vigorously against it in 1859 in Massachusetts) ignored them. But he could not get more troops from Washington, and by August the Confederates had launched an attack on Baton Rouge that almost succeeded. Suddenly Butler was interested -- but the Lincoln administration was not yet ready for Black troops and would not authorize Black troops for Federal service. So Butler (a Boston lawyer) dusted off the LA Governor's activation of the Native Guards and started recruiting. He formed four regiments (the original seems to have been about 14-15 companies in a single regiment) of Louisiana Native Guards using his authority as military governor. These were later called the Corps d'Afrique and then became USCT regiments later in the war. A goodly number of men served in both Union and Confederate versions. Battalion will say it is fewer, because he only counts those who served in the 1st regiment, and not those who served in the other three.

To those who want to claim that there were tens of thousands of "Black Confederates" fighting for the South, these Louisiana Native Guards are very important. They will try to tell you they fought for the Confederacy -- but they never fired a shot in anger at Yankees. They will try to tell you they were in the Confederate army -- but they never were. They will try to find a way they were deployed in the field alongside Confederate troops, under Confederate command, such as at the Chalmette Line south of New Orleans -- but they never were. They will try to tell you they were a well-armed and equipped unit -- hence the falsified photo, I suppose, among other reasons -- but they never were.

You can find black individuals who served in Confederate units -- particularly as body servants, musicians, and cooks. You can find black teamsters -- but free black men were exempted from conscription of any kind until 1864, and civilian teamsters made $2/day while soldiers made $13/month; which do you think free black men would choose? You can even find the occasional man who apparently was Black (or Creole, which many Southerners in LA-MS-AL said was different) serving as a soldier somewhere. In any case, the free Black male military-age population of the Confederate states was less than 22,000 according to the 1860 Census, so where did the tens of thousands of "Black Confederates" come from?

Sorry for the dry and over-long post. All the hub-bub is really about arguments of people who wish to over-inflate the size of the "Black Confederate" contribution for one reason or another, and probably the over-reaction of those who discuss it with them.

Regards,
Tim

Last edited by trice; 04-06-2007 at 06:44 AM.
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  #60  
Old 04-06-2007, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpl20thNYVA
Union propaganda?

http://37thtexas.org/html/laguard.html



uhhh... no.

And the 37th Texas website proves again why it's one of the most dishonest and disreputable sites around. If you go to the article that started this thread, you'll see that the lithograph was made from a photo of a Federal USCT unit in 1864, not from the fake confederate sham. The 37th Texas site leaves out the 1864 photo completely, trying to fool people into thinking that only the litho is used to show that the fake photo is another confederate sham.

It's amazing how that website will lie so blatantly and expect people to believe it. But I suppose if people will believe there were tens of thousands of black confederate soldiers, they'll believe almost anything.

Regards,
Cash
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