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Religion? No, a quest for historical accuracy instead of revisionist fantasy.
IMO the AoT CS was the finest army in the CS Army and second only to the AoT US on the North American continent if not perhaps the the whole world.
Give me the Missouri Brigade w/ Cleburne's Division in support along w/ th 15th Corps and I believe I'd whip hell itself.
You aren't honoring those men, but those that sent the lie that flew them. Your hero Davis failed them from the very start. They deserved someone better... he gave them Bragg and then Hood. Not something to be proud of.
I believe something in the neighborhood of 1400 black men took up arms for the CS, and the number that supported the CS materially as unwilling slaves was legion. In the years I've been studying the subject I've seen realistic and reputable numbers as high as 13,000 and patently ridiculous numbers as high as 250,000. Where do you stand? W/ Battalion and his one time, realistic, number of 5000? Or the other side of the spectrum?
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
Religion? No, a quest for historical accuracy instead of revisionist fantasy.
IMO the AoT CS was the finest army in the CS Army and second only to the AoT US on the North American continent if not perhaps the the whole world.
Give me the Missouri Brigade w/ Cleburne's Division in support along w/ th 15th Corps and I believe I'd whip hell itself.
You aren't honoring those men, but those that sent the lie that flew them. Your hero Davis failed them from the very start. They deserved someone better... he gave them Bragg and then Hood. Not something to be proud of.
I believe something in the neighborhood of 1400 black men took up arms for the CS, and the number that supported the CS materially as unwilling slaves was legion. In the years I've been studying the subject I've seen realistic and reputable numbers as high as 13,000 and patently ridiculous numbers as high as 250,000. Where do you stand? W/ Battalion and his one time, realistic, number of 5000? Or the other side of the spectrum?
I stand on the idea that the numbers are meaningless.
Absolutely meaningless.
Does that shock you?
If negroes are fighting on both sides, and the war is about whether or not to continue the act of owning slaves, then ANY fighting for the South means the Negro is ambivalent
to his own slavery...
And that in itself is not bad. Some freed negroes owned a bunch, themselves...
And that is not a numbers game, either... or the 250,000 freed Southern negroes in the South at the outbreak of fighting... so what of that number, large as it is?
What does it mean?
It means only one thing. And that thing is the point I am making...
The point is that the South was not collectively RACIST,
slave-driving, united on slavery, united on maintaining slavery, nor traitors to anyone BECAUSE of the NEGRO or, as Davis puts it, this endless and pointless argument over African servitude.
And the war, then, was not over SLAVERY, as an institution, nor 'an art form', to put it in the sense of an absolute value. As an economic factor, as a political power factor (3/5's)
and as a safety factor for all Southerners against terrorism... Yes.
But because the North CARED, and the South was RACIST?
Not a bleeding chance.
And the negro was not 100% behind the North. Quite the opposite, in many instances.
So, the war was waged over forcing one set of people to be associated with a brand new political party they despised.
So, Qui bono?
Who benefits?
The people who were forcing the issue.
Davis would rather have headed the army. I never said he was perfect...
But I'll take him over Lincoln and that crowd, any day!
I stand on the idea that the numbers are meaningless.
And in fact, they are.
Absolutely meaningless.
Correct.
Does that shock you?
Not really, when you consider most here on this forum can read, and often do when it comes to the claim of Southern slaves fighting to keep themselves in chains.
If negroes are fighting on both sides, and the war is about whether or not to continue the act of owning slaves, then ANY fighting for the South means the Negro is ambivalent
to his own slavery...
Which is absolute bull, especially when you concur that the numbers are absolutely meaningless, especially when you realize that large numbers, medium sized numbers, etc., did NOT fight for the Confederacy, and that the leaders of the South and the Southern States made it very plain they were seceding over the issue of slavery.
And that in itself is not bad. Some freed negroes owned a bunch, themselves...
And that is not a numbers game, either... or the 250,000 freed Southern negroes in the South at the outbreak of fighting... so what of that number, large as it is?
What does it mean?
It means only one thing. And that thing is the point I am making...
The point is that the South was not collectively RACIST,
slave-driving, united on slavery, united on maintaining slavery, nor traitors to anyone BECAUSE of the NEGRO or, as Davis puts it, this endless and pointless argument over African servitude.
No, actually, more and more, the historical evidence is pointing to the idea the South WAS united over maintaining slavery. The only ones who seem to keep maintaining the "endless and pointless" argument over African slavery seems to be the ones who wish to constantly deny the institution was the main cause of the war.
And the war, then, was not over SLAVERY, as an institution, nor 'an art form', to put it in the sense of an absolute value. As an economic factor, as a political power factor (3/5's)
and as a safety factor for all Southerners against terrorism... Yes.
And the war, then, WAS over slavery, its expansion, and its protection. Terrorism...No.
But because the North CARED, and the South was RACIST?
No, because the North was MADE to care, because the South continued to push the institution, at the expense of States Rights, freedom of speech, and the continuing, ongoing effort to force it upon the entire nation.
Not a bleeding chance.
And the negro was not 100% behind the North. Quite the opposite, in many instances.
Post war myth, 100% unsupported by historical fact and research.
So, the war was waged over forcing one set of people to be associated with a brand new political party they despised.
Quote: "Not a bleeding chance." unquote.
So, Qui bono?
Who benefits?
The people who were forcing the issue.
The people who forced the issue were the same ones who fired on Ft. Sumter.
Davis would rather have headed the army. I never said he was perfect...
Not by a long-shot, but he should not carry all the blame as he had plenty of help.
But I'll take him over Lincoln and that crowd, any day!
Beowulf
And you would do so for myth, not historical fact, for fiction over truth. For the idea that millions of black slaves would willingly fight to enforce slavery upon themselves, their families, their children.
Your choice.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
It's okay to believe in the myths of ...
Behold, the Double Standard.
Apparently you are posting on this, from an earlier post by Battalion:
===== PBS-
"In what proved the ugliest racial incident of the war, Confederate forces under General Nathan B. Forrest captured Fort Pillow on April 12, 1864, and proceeded to kill all the black troops within; some were burned or buried alive. A Federal congressional investigating committee subsequently verified that more than 300 blacks, including women and children, had been slain after the fort surrendered. After the incident, black soldiers going into battle used the cry "Remember Fort Pillow!" http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aaworld/reference/articles/fort_pillow.htm
=====
The battle at Fort Pillow was certainly "ugly"; it was famous, and may or may not have been the "ugliest racial incident of the war". It was, inevitably, part of the propaganda effort that year, an election year, with wild claims and denials on both sides.
As to the facts, anyone who bases their claims on a 1-paragraph summary on a TV station website just isn't bothering to look very far.
Within this paragraph, we see the following claims:
"proceeded to kill all the black troops within;" Not completely accurate. Some lived; most died. About 70-80% died, depending on how many were actually in the fort at the time. Some of the seriously wounded were handed over to the Union the next day. The rest of the survivors were taken with Forrest's retreating troops back to Mississippi.
"some were burned or buried alive." I only know of one verified case of a USCT body found, the uniform nailed to the floor of burn-out cabin, apparently a wounded man burned alive. The burial party of four men that found the body all swore affidavits to that effect. There were stories of others, but none are confirmed and there is much doubt they were true.
There were a number of references to USCT buried alive in the aftermath of the assault. One Confederate participant later wrote a letter that was published in a Confederate paper, apparently verifying a few USCT played dead and were buried alive as a result. If this did in fact occur, relatively few could have been killed this way.
"A Federal congressional investigating committee subsequently verified that"
Everyone who investigates Ft. Pillow knows this "committee" was composed of highly partisan Radical Republicans who encouraged unreliable or false testimony. Only the kooks deny it.
"more than 300 blacks, including women and children, had been slain after the fort surrendered."
An exaggeration. However, at least 226 USCT are known to have died, and perhaps more. Some of those were normal casualties of battle; some were murdered. No one knows how many were "massacred". But it is only the size of the "massacre" that is in doubt. No one can study the data objectively and doubt that some of the defenders (white as well as black) were murdered.
The women and children had supposedly all been evacuated to a small island in the river before the assault. However, some sources say a few women stayed behind and died in the battle.
"After the incident, black soldiers going into battle used the cry "Remember Fort Pillow!"
Absolutely true. Verified by comments from both the Union and Confederate sides.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
And you would do so for myth, not historical fact, for fiction over truth. For the idea that millions of black slaves would willingly fight to enforce slavery upon themselves, their families, their children.
Your choice.
Unionblue
Your version leaves out so much that it qualifies for fiction.
Your version leaves out so much that it qualifies for fiction.
Beowulf
One must be able to determine what historical facts have been left out in "my version" before one can be taken seriously about what qualifies for fiction.
I can wait.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
And you would do so for myth, not historical fact, for fiction over truth. For the idea that millions of black slaves would willingly fight to enforce slavery upon themselves, their families, their children.
Your choice.
Unionblue
In his world its the loyal serfs coming to the defense of the chivalrous lord....
From "No Word of Them: First Battalion New York Sharpshooters, 1862 - 1865", p177.
[This is the section transcribing the diary of Private John T. Farnham]
Monday [ May] 4th [1863] - A fine day. Shower about 1 P.M. Very warm. Just after sunrise we went to camp as usual but then went back after blanket & overcoat & back to camp. Ordered to have [haver]sack & 3 days rations, ready to march, as the rebs had retreated to the (Blackwater) rear in the night. All ready to march. Wrote home. Our forces go out reconnoitering & the rebs, a good quantity, give themselves
up as prisoners & are bro[ugh]t in, dirty & lean. Gen[erals] Corcoran & Getty both went out & the loss was 60 killed & wounded, & the rebs skedaddled. Saw some of the gray backs pass & have a buckshot & ball from one of their cartridges. Some negroes bro[ugh]t in who had been fighting against us. Will not go off on march today. Read book, Harpers. Fixed for a good rest tonight. Everything pleasant & seems like being near the woods at home.
And you would do so for myth, not historical fact, for fiction over truth. For the idea that millions of black slaves would willingly fight to enforce slavery upon themselves, their families, their children.
Your choice.
Unionblue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
Your version leaves out so much that it qualifies for fiction.
Beowulf
...and it assumes that 'millions' of slaves perceptions of the war were according to the Yankee propaganda version.
__________________ POWER & MONEY
"Your New-York bankers and merchants are shrewd people, but I never gave them credit for so much sagacity as when they took the Government Loan. It was not merely patriotism, it was a high stroke of policy. It has saved the Government, and what they will regard as equally important, saved them from a great financial disaster."
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