Who Invaded Whom?

[larry_cockerham]

The title of this thread was about who got invaded. About the only folks who have seriously been invaded were the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw and Creek nations. The 1861-65 deal was a more or less Civil War. Moving back and forth across the Kentucky-Tennessee-Mississippi-Alabama-Virginia-North Carolina- South Carolina - Georgia - Louisiana, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Florida state lines was hardly an invasion on anyone's part. The US Army was created by all those states listed and populated to varying extents by men from those borders. The Confederates were just folks. Folks who were whizzed at the other folks, some for good reason. Others just to occupy their time and personal objectives. In the 1970s the yankees who worked for IBM moved to Raleigh and took over local government, overpopulated the schools and clogged the less than adequate highways. THAT was an invasion.

[ole]

Freddy: Thanks so much for providing that clause. It seems to hint stongly at your question has some merit. At the very least, it acknowledges that all states had a perpetual agreement. It might be argued otherwise, but your point is well made. Thank you.

Ole

[ole]

In the 1970s the yankees who worked for IBM moved to Raleigh and took over local government, overpopulated the schools and clogged the less than adequate highways. THAT was an invasion.

Larry: I'm also fond of the good old days, but it remains that, "What doesn't grow dies." That's not Darwinism, but it's a close approximation.
Ole

[suwannee]

Originally Posted by larry_cockerham

The title of this thread was about who got invaded. About the only folks who have seriously been invaded were the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw and Creek nations. The 1861-65 deal was a more or less Civil War. Moving back and forth across the Kentucky-Tennessee-Mississippi-Alabama-Virginia-North Carolina- South Carolina - Georgia - Louisiana, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Florida state lines was hardly an invasion on anyone's part. The US Army was created by all those states listed and populated to varying extents by men from those borders. The Confederates were just folks. Folks who were whizzed at the other folks, some for good reason. Others just to occupy their time and personal objectives. In the 1970s the yankees who worked for IBM moved to Raleigh and took over local government, overpopulated the schools and clogged the less than adequate highways. THAT was an invasion.

Larry, the thesis of this thread is that the Civil War began with an attempted federal invasion of South Carolina before Sumter was fired on.
Hence the title.
The Lincoln administration not only dispatched a war fleet to Charleston, they notified the government of South Carolina of its destination and even specified rules of engagement for that battle fleet; it would only fight if resisted.
The authorities did not buy this pig in a poke because a Union force had unnecessarily occupied a strategic point in Charleston harbor to provide combat support for that fleet when it arrived.
Hairs can be split to infinity and a mob of angels can dance on the head of a pin, but that was clearly an open declaration of war.
If I tell you I'm sending an armored division to your country but it is for humanitarian reasons, and will only blow you to pieces if you try to stop it, you might justly conclude that I'm either looking for a fight or a surrender.

I believe my thesis stands so far.

The Civil War began with an attempted federal invasion of South Carolina. The question of whether South Carolina seceded or not is moot - there is no question that this attempted invasion took place, and was the first ordered belligerent act.

Add; In the 18th century the maximum range of most cannons was 3 miles. As a result of this a "Three Mile Limit" was established as the territorial maritime limit of a sovereign state. Any vessel entering into that 3 mile range without permission could be boarded and seized by the coast guard of that country - if no coast guard was available, it could be fired upon.
This fire would be across the bow first - if the intruding vessel did not stop and wait to be boarded for inspection, the next shots could be fired into the vessel. The Union vessels that attempted to enter Charleston harbor did so without prior permission, and in defiance of orders to stop. This was in accordance with international law.

It was the Union that claimed that the first act of war was the firing on Ft. Sumter. It didn't deem any prior actions to be acts of war by that definition; therefore these prior acts were not acts of war. Argue it with the Union not with me. They disagree with you.

[trice]

Originally Posted by suwannee

Larry, the thesis of this thread is that the Civil War began with an attempted federal invasion of South Carolina before Sumter was fired on.
Hence the title.
The Lincoln administration not only dispatched a war fleet to Charleston, they notified the government of South Carolina of its destination and even specified rules of engagement for that battle fleet; it would only fight if resisted.
The authorities did not buy this pig in a poke because a Union force had unnecessarily occupied a strategic point in Charleston harbor to provide combat support for that fleet when it arrived.
Hairs can be split to infinity and a mob of angels can dance on the head of a pin, but that was clearly an open declaration of war.
If I tell you I'm sending an armored division to your country but it is for humanitarian reasons, and will only blow you to pieces if you try to stop it, you might justly conclude that I'm either looking for a fight or a surrender.

I believe my thesis stands so far.

The Civil War began with an attempted federal invasion of South Carolina. The question of whether South Carolina seceded or not is moot - there is no question that this attempted invasion took place, and was the first ordered belligerent act.

This is all a distortion of history.

Before Lincoln ever arrived in Washington to assume his office, various seceding states had seized many Federal institutions (arsenals, forts, Customs offices, the New Orleans Mint, etc.) They seized Federal funds and materials; they forcibly took over the collection of revenue at US Customs posts, the big one being New Orleans (which was how they funded the formation of the Confederate government, LA giving a cut to Montgomery). They seized ships and yards. They interfered with routine movements of Federal employees and troops. They used armed force to do this (such as Texas seizing the post in San Antonio and forcing General Twiggs to surrender to them, or the 700 LA militia Braxton Bragg led to seize the US Arsenal in Baton Rouge).

They began counterfitting US coinage in the New Orleans Mint, doing so with the half million dollars worth of gold and silver they seized there. The state of Louisiana did this at first; eventually they turned it over to the Confederacy, but by then they were starting to run out of the gold and silver they had stolen and so little was produced.

They fired twice on US flag ships entering Charleston harbor. They besieged Federal soldiers in two posts -- outraged that the commanders had the gumption to refuse their demands.

They threatened to refuse payment of private debts, and passed legislation to do so through the Confederate government. They rigged the secession vote illegally in at least one state (Texas) because it was not moving fast enough for the hotheads there.

Some of their aggressive and illegal acts occurred even before the states involved had passed a secession ordinance, so you cannot even claim that flimsy screen for their treasonous behavior.

Absolutely nothing had been done to them to justify this barbarous behavior -- except that they had lost an election, one that the Fire-Eaters had worked hard to ensure would be lost. Why? Because they wanted to use the loss of the election to a Republican as an incitement to the rest of the Southerners, to whip them into a frenzy for secession.

The governor of SC called for troops in November of 1860. The SC Militia was encamped in Charleston before secession was voted by the convention there. In December, 1860, the SC legislature passed the legislation the outgoing governor had requested, authorizing 10,000 long-term Volunteers. Another regiment of 6-month men was authorized by the convention, recruited, and serving at building/manning Charleston defenses by late January, 1861. Another force of SC Regulars was authorized, was organized and forming in the occupied Ft. Moultrie by February. Other states had thousands of other troops, Milita called up or long-term volunteers organizing during this period.

The man they objected to had not even left his home state when they started this road to war. By the time he took office, the new Confederate government had authorized up to 100,000 long-term troops; and the new President of the Confederacy, Jefferson Davis, had called for the first of them. Before he ordered the attack on Ft. Sumter, he considered a bloody assault on Ft. Pickens in Pensacola as a way to start the war, but decided on Ft. Sumter because Bragg at Pensacola did not sound enthusiastic about the possibility of success.

By the time Sumter was attacked, the Confederacy had already called upon the states for over 30,000 long-term troops. This does not count many state Militia and other units above that figure. SC alone had already organized 10 regiments, recruited to above 10,000 troops, not including some Militia and Regular troops they also had called up and serving.

Meanwhile, the entire US Army consisted of some 16,000 men. On 1/1/1861, roughly 14,000 of these were west of the Mississippi, fighting Indians/bandits and attempting to provide law and order. When Sumter was attacked, that was where they still were, except for the roughly 1100 who had already evacuated Texas in accord with the agreement the secessionists had forced upon Twiggs. The remaining troops in Texas, peacefully withdrawing in compliance with that shameful agreement, were immediately interned by the Confederates as they attacked Ft. Sumter. Many Regulars remained in Confederate prisons until late in 1863, when the last of them were exchanged.

With absolutely no credible threat to their states (it would take months to bring troops back from the Pacific coast, for example), the leaders of secession armed for war. In April, they already had called for more then 30,000 troops, all long-term Volunteers -- and neither Buchanan or Lincoln had yet called for a single additional soldier above the 16,000 who existed the year before. They were besieging Federal troops in two different places, threatening to assault both of them.

All of these are aggressive acts that any nation would call acts of war by another. The US government had done absolutely nothing that can be claimed as an excuse for this bad behavior.

Please explain why you have deliberately omitted all this to attempt to make it seem Lincoln's action in mid-April, 1861 caused such offensive and illegal actions by the offending states from November of 1860 to April of 1861.

Tim

[OpnDownfall]

As usual, Suwannee thesis is incorrect. The war was precipitated by the firing upon a military fort of the United States gov't (if there were difficulties over ownership of the fort or its land, that is what the courts and Congress are for).
The relief expedition to Ft. Sumter arrived in time to see the Ft. was Already under attack.
War happened because the Montgomery gov't wanted a war to shake the Border States from their fences.
The North did not need a war to maintain the status quo, but the south Did need a war to change the status of the confederacy from 7 states to 11 states attempting to leave the Union.
The south needed a war, it wanted a war, it got a war.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by ole

Freddy: Thanks so much for providing that clause. It seems to hint stongly at your question has some merit. At the very least, it acknowledges that all states had a perpetual agreement. It might be argued otherwise, but your point is well made. Thank you.

Ole

You are welcome! I cannot remember where I first read this argument online. I think it was writen by an attorney who was attempting to argue secession was not allowed by the adoption of the NW Ordinance of 1787. If I find it again I will post the link.

[gary]

The entire premise of the question is based upon which force initiated an invasion of the other. Well, I couldn't say the occupation of Fort Sumter was an invasion. It was still Federal land and Anderson was already in the vicinity. It would be more proper to say that it was a continuing trespass on land that prompted an eviction by forceful means.

[samgrant]

Originally Posted by gary

The entire premise of the question is based upon which force initiated an invasion of the other. Well, I couldn't say the occupation of Fort Sumter was an invasion. It was still Federal land and Anderson was already in the vicinity. It would be more proper to say that it was a continuing trespass on land that prompted an eviction by forceful means.

Well, politely phrased, but what do you mean by "a continuing trespass", how does that square with "still Federal land"?

[larry_cockerham]

Poor old Ft. Sumter was on an island last time I looked from the battery at Charleston. If Uncle Sam claimed he owned that old fort, I believe him. This was part of a series of coastal forts stretching from at least Mobile to Delaware. That makes 'em Federal structures regardless of who owned the swamp underneath. The way I look at it Ft. Sumter, like Ft. Fisher, Ft. Macon or Ft. Caswell in North Carolina belonged to the people of South Carolina as well, their being US citizens at the time, just as it did the people of Wisconsin. When a federally unrecognized party such as old Gus Beauregard, took a pot shot at the fort, that was cause for a response, be he a citizen or not. It's a shame it took four years to settle the issue.