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If true - I can't see the leader of an illegal organization saying he was so in front of a panel of those who would eagerly hang him for being so - then that would account for Tennessee.
Not Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Lousiana, Florida, Texas, Arkansas, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia - which remained active until all traces of Reconstruction were gone.
Not to mention the klaverns in places like Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, New York, Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland..... to my knowledge those never disbanded, but then they weren't the Southern Klan.
The KKK began in Pulaski,Tennessee early in 1866 and - insofar as anyone can determine the truth of such a matter - Nathan Bedford Forrest became the Grand Wizard of the first Klan in April of 1867 during the secret convention in Nashville where the "Prescript" was adopted. Apparently Morton, his former artillery chief, was the Grand Cyclops of the Nashville Den and inducted Forrest.
Forrest himself was dancing a line on revealing too much publicly, because much of what he was talking about could have landed him in jail. In his testimony before Congress in 1871 (took an entire day, covers forty pages of small print in the 13 volume report), Forrest has a great deal of knowledge about the Klan, but an amazing forgetfullness about names and exact dates. Names he does remember are always of dead men or men named Jones who have "moved to Brazil". He said he had seen a copy of the constitution of the organization, had read it, and referred to it as the "Prescript", but also said he had burned it. He referred to operations of the Klan in various places and said he had "suppressed it" by "writing letters" to people in the other states as well as Tennessee. No serious student who reads the text ever doubts Forrest was the man in charge of the KKK. His testimony is in volume XIII of the Joint Select Committee's report if you want to look for it.
Parts of the organization did not accept Forrest's order, which was why the Klan continued to become the second Klan, merging with other of the various organizations floating around in those days.
Now why do you doubt Forrest's testimony? Forrest's biographers, like Ralph Selph Henry, find it believable. Have you read all or part of it and noticed something I have not?
Now why do you doubt Forrest's testimony? Forrest's biographers, like Ralph Selph Henry, find it believable. Have you read all or part of it and noticed something I have not?
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Originally Posted by suwannee
they would have hanged him if he admitted to being the leader of an active illegal organization
Since you have avoided my direct question, I have to guess you have never read any of his testimony.
From the way you are phrasing your responses and avoiding acknowledgement of information you have already been given, I have to assume you have skipped large parts of what I have already said
No one in a position to know for sure ever stated publicly, while alive, that Forrest was the first Grand Wizard. The Grand Wizard is referred to as a "citizen of Tennessee" when mentioned by most. Forrest never said he was head of the KKK -- but he did testify he had the organization broken up and suppressed by "writing and receiving letters". The evidence is overwhelming that he was the Grand Wizard from many sources. One of the six original founders of the KKK said so in a letter, but the letter was published (1914) after the man died (1908).
When the Committee was holding those hearings in 1871 and Forrest spent his long day before them, no one was particualrly interested in prosecuting him. Tennessee was quieting down with Brownlow gone from the Governor's seat; Forrest had been pardoned in July of 1868 -- right after he attended the Democratic Convention in New York City.
There have been persistent rumors through the years that Forrest had met privately with Grant during the 1868 election campaign and struck a deal. No one has ever proven it, and it is hard to figure a time and place for the meeting -- but Forrest had often been able to move without being tracked during the war. The deal essentially came to Grant exerting himself to ease Reconstruction and Forrest clamping the lid on the KKK, if it really existed.
If any of that is real, the reasoning is clear and so is the quid pro quo. Brownlow was sent off to the Senate and a new Republican, a conservative, came to the office in February 1869. That August the man was elected to a full term, with support from those ex-Confederates who could vote (and background support from the KKK, which generally could not). Radical (Carpetbagger/Scalawag) power was broken. Ten days later, the Nashville Den says it got the dissolution order. Grant gets a little peace in the South; Forrest gets a little relief from Reconstruction.
If true - I can't see the leader of an illegal organization saying he was so in front of a panel of those who would eagerly hang him for being so - then that would account for Tennessee.
Not Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Lousiana, Florida, Texas, Arkansas, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia - which remained active until all traces of Reconstruction were gone.
Not to mention the klaverns in places like Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, New York, Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland..... to my knowledge those never disbanded, but then they weren't the Southern Klan.
Suwannee (strange name) your prior long post on reconstruction looks pretty true through my gray eyes as well as the little I learned in history class as well as just looking around the south for the past several decades.
At the risk of appearing to be a biased Forrest fan, which I am in many respects, please separate the Tennessee 'klan' boys in 1865-69 from the rest of the pile. These were largely Confederate veterans returning home to a lawless, governmentless 'society' that was on it's ear economically, socially and politically. Yes, the carpetbaggers were the first target followed by the politicians. When Forrest said it was done, the activitiy ceased in Tennessee for decades. [The sad fact that the leader in Georgia in the 1920s happened to be grandson Nathan Bedford Forrest II has never helped the general with his public relations, especially among folks too lazy or dumb to read the facts. Nathan Bedford Forrest III stayed away from the mess and gave his life in WWII, perhaps a fitting tribute to his warrior great grandfather.] Forrest I was no saint. He was a competitor, but one who believed in the Union himself, having plainly stated so several times prior to the outbreak of hostilities in 1861.
The folks who "copied" the Tennessee organization with their own versions of the 'klan' did the original Veterans no service. Reconstruction was a ***** at best. Much of the south near the battlefields as well as the paths of travel had to literally be rebuilt regardless of the politics and greed.
__________________ Ancestors in US Army: 13th TN Cav; 10th TN Cav; 3rd NC Inf
Ancestors in CSA Army: 48th VA; 63rd VA, 5th NC Cav; 37th NC
Wife and Grandson's CSA: 15th AL, 51st GA, 41st TN; 36th TN; GA Mil 1197 Dist
That's precisely what I did Larry - chop the link between the Klan of Forrest and what passes for it today.
Forrest was resisting an unlawful act - Reconstruction - and attempting to restore the lawful government of his state. When that was done he ceased and desisted.
The Northern Klan was not connected to the Southern Klan. Its aim was keeping jobs for northern whites. A completely different undertaking that is still ongoing. The faux Klan of the South is related to the Northern Klan not Forrest - he would have had nothing to do with them.
Those who try to link the modern Klan to the Confederacy do so to attempt to further blacken the name of the Confederacy, and they do so falsely.
To their dismay they found that the experienced former slave workers wanted no part of cotton farming.
Whitelaw Ried and John Trowbridge do not support this statement. According to them, the carpetbaggers had little trouble in finding experienced freedmen to work on plantations for wages.
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Many of these freedmen felt betrayed; they expected their former plantations to be divided up and given to them (the famed 40 Acres and a Mule).
The famed 40 Acres and a Mule promise was made in Savanna by General Sherman apparently with the approval if not the urging of Secretary Stanton. The land offered was abandoned coastal and island plantations which would produce no crop in '65 unless somebody planted it. As the promise held no force of law, much of the squatted land was reclaimed after the war. Many historians claim Sherman made the grants to get the army of slaves off his back. (Believable.)
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These would not even work cotton for wages. It would have been better for the northerners had this policy been instituted; these freedmen and their families would have been able to support themselves, while contributing taxes and their votes and bettering their lives.
Ried and Trowbridge didn't support this statement either. They noted that some former slaves wouldn't work under any circumstances, or if they did, it would be long enough to buy some whiskey. They noted also that the percentage of former slaves who wouldn't work was roughly equivalent to the white laboring population. who wouldn't work.
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Most of the plantation owners were dead or imprisoned, and whites didn't live on these plantations so they would not have been displaced.
Would you provide a source for this claim? Most were dead or imprisoned. It is probably true that a great many plantations were abandoned when the Federals worked the area. Many of them were reoccupied and planted when action cooled in the Mississippi Valley and Tennessee, and the cotton regions of Georgia and Alabama where virtually untouched.
With certain notable exceptions, plantations were undisturbed except for the slaves that could get away. With little hope for a harvest (the Negroes won't work), it was these plantation owners that sold the crops in their fields. The carpetbaggers bought the crops and hired the former slaves to harvest them. Made a bundle, too.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
If true - I can't see the leader of an illegal organization saying he was so in front of a panel of those who would eagerly hang him for being so - then that would account for Tennessee.
Not Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Lousiana, Florida, Texas, Arkansas, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia - which remained active until all traces of Reconstruction were gone.
Not to mention the klaverns in places like Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, New York, Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland..... to my knowledge those never disbanded, but then they weren't the Southern Klan.
Now you're calling Forrest a liar? I doubt very many men had the intestinal fortitude to call a Forrest a liar to his face... then again 140 odd years of seperation eases that somewhat. I'd be tempted to disagree w/ you about Forrests influence upon the early clan but I will yield the floor to those more knowledgeable in Klan history.
Would you have any reputable resources to back up your opinion?
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
The famed 40 Acres and a Mule promise was made in Savanna by General Sherman apparently with the approval if not the urging of Secretary Stanton. The land offered was abandoned coastal and island plantations which would produce no crop in '65 unless somebody planted it. As the promise held no force of law, much of the squatted land was reclaimed after the war. Many historians claim Sherman made the grants to get the army of slaves off his back. (Believable.)
I would tend to think, no evidence of this, that Sherman believed it a way to put in the grave the aristocricy that he felt started the whole dust up in the first place. I believe in his memoirs he states he had every intention of folling through w/ the order... wish he had; I believe it would have solved many of the initial issues.
Wuold have been easy enough to implement... supported slavery? ahh that's very nice, head west w/ your family because your land has been confiscated and given over to your former slaves; have a nice day. Nice, nope... but it would have been just deserts and it wouldn't have touched most of the men who did the fighting and dieing for the CS.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
I would tend to think, no evidence of this, that Sherman believed it a way to put in the grave the aristocricy that he felt started the whole dust up in the first place. I believe in his memoirs he states he had every intention of folling through w/ the order... wish he had; I believe it would have solved many of the initial issues.
I have no doubt that Sherman would have liked to have done that; and that he remembered how much he wanted to but ..... Sherman knew that such an edict would have to come from Lincoln followed up by congressional action.
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Wuold have been easy enough to implement... supported slavery? ahh that's very nice, head west w/ your family because your land has been confiscated and given over to your former slaves; have a nice day. Nice, nope... but it would have been just deserts and it wouldn't have touched most of the men who did the fighting and dieing for the CS.
It would have been just deserts, but it would have left the deep south devoid of experienced leaders at all levels.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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