The Ulysses S. Grant Thread

[william42]

Copy that Ole. I've never been able to get a definite yea or nay on that, probably because it is an unimportant detail, and unverifiable too. Thank you.


Terry

[samgrant]

Originally Posted by william42

Sam, you obviously know US Grant. I've read several accounts of the battle of the Wilderness. Some accounts say Grant, at the end of the first day, went into his tent and wept. Other accounts say nothing at all about this. I believe Shelby Foote's narrative does not mention the weeping incident, but another book, possibly McPherson, or Rhea? ( I can't remember, and I no longer have the books), say that Grant did have a crying jag on that day.

Do you know about this, and if so, is there more evidence to confirm the weeping, or more evidence that shows the weeping to be a false rumor?

Terry

If I might reply in the diembodied voice of the late Harry Caray, I would say:

Uraggh, Shame on you young man, [cough] mister William42, or is mister terry? Garglct, Terry, you know what your name is backwards? [Cough], well that would be, urrgll, 'Yreet', and you know young man that it was in fact [cough] one William42 who initialized the thread titled "Did or did not Grant weep at the Wilderness" in which your friend, arhargh, Samgrant posted this reply among others:

Horace Porter relates that after the 1st day Grant was 'visibly affected' by the news Porter brought him of the death of his old friend and formet cadet-mate, Gen. Alexander Hayes.

Foote puts the 'weeping' on the 2nd night.

Porter of the 2nd night: "he had smoked that day about twenty (cigars) .. he never afterward equalled that record". I'd weep too, had I smoked 20 cigars "all very strong and of formidable size". But, Porter continues: Grant "entered his tent, and threw himself downupon his camp-bed. ...Ten minutes thereafter ... I found him sleeping as soundly and as peacefully as an infant." Porter does not mention Rawwlins or Adams as being present.

Then there is this from Geoffrey Perret's Ulysses S. Grant Soldier and President:

"According to Wilson (James H.), the tremendous strain of this hectic day was more than Grant could handle. His nerves shattered, Grant went into his tent, threw himself on his cot and broke down. Not that Wilson was there. He claimed he got this story from Rawlins. Wilson, however, almost surely invented this incident as part his larger design to belittle Grant, and Grant biographer Bruce Catton wasn't sure what to make of it, so he buried it in his footnotes when he wrote his account of the battle of the Wilderness. Someone who was there. however, was Horace Porter. He went into the tent shortly after Grant and found him not sobbing but napping."

Now, young man, [cough] you must be reminded that you started that post on Valentines Day of 2006, any significance in that? HarHarHar!

http://civilwartalk.com/forums/showt...ght=grant+wept


Seriously, I've come to the conclusion that if Grant was inclined to weeping, it would have been at Cold Harbor; so that if he wept at the first day of the Wilderness it was because of the ineptitude and timidity of the Army of the Potomac compared with what he was used to with the Army of the Tennessee.

[william42]

Sam, thanks for your reply. You have an uncanny ability to isolate and pinpoint previous threads and topics. My compliments. I have more than once crossed that line into forbidden duplicate topic territory, and been caught and chastised by you. That's ok. I am not thin-skinned and can take my licks behind the woodshed as well as any man. This board has toughened my butt into a thick leathery covering, that can be kicked and caned for significant lengths of time with no discernible discomfort apparent, unless you look at my face. My mistake, noted. And thank you for the additional info on Mr. Grant's conduct, which was pretty well articulated by Ole, who said essentially this: "The jury's still out on that."

Terry

[samgrant]

Originally Posted by william42

Sam, thanks for your reply. You have an uncanny ability to isolate and pinpoint previous threads and topics. My compliments. I have more than once crossed that line into forbidden duplicate topic territory, and been caught and chastised by you. That's ok. I am not thin-skinned and can take my licks behind the woodshed as well as any man. This board has toughened my butt into a thick leathery covering, that can be kicked and caned for significant lengths of time with no discernible discomfort apparent, unless you look at my face. My mistake, noted. And thank you for the additional info on Mr. Grant's conduct, which was pretty well articulated by Ole, who said essentially this: "The jury's still out on that."


Terry

Sorry you took it that way, didn't mean to 'chastise' or whatever, and I have no interest whatsoever in the condition of your 'butt', my point was the AOP vs. the AOT thing. (The Harry Caray thing was just a part of my anticipation to opening day, young man.)

[william42]

Sam, I didn't take it personally. I thought your post was humorous, so I tried to be the same. You can see the results of my attempts at humor. Anyway, go Cubbies.

Terry

[ole]

Anyway, go Cubbies.

Wait till next year! Go Sox!
Ole

[samgrant]

Anecdote of General Grant

THE following was told by an officer of General Grant's staff: —

The hero and veteran, who was citizen, captain, colonel, brigadier and major-general within a space of nine months, though a rigid disciplinarian, and a perfect Ironsides in the discharge of his official duties, could enjoy a good joke, and is always ready to perpetrate one when an opportunity presents. Indeed, among his acquaintances, he is as much renowned for his eccentric humor as he is for his skill and bravery as a commander.

When Grant was a brigadier in South-east Missouri, he commanded an expedition against the rebels under Jeff. Thompson, in North-east Arkansas. The distance from the starting-point of the expedition to the supposed rendezvous of the rebels was about one hundred and ten miles, and the greater portion of the route lay through howling wilderness. The imaginary suffering that our soldiers endured during the two first days of their march was enormous. It was impossible to steal or “confiscate” uncultivated real estate, and not a hog, or a chicken, or an ear of corn was anywhere to be seen.

On the third day, however, affairs looked more hopeful, for a few small specks of ground, in a state of partial cultivation, were here and there visible. On that day, Lieutenant Wickfield, of an Indiana cavalry regiment, commanded the advance-guard, consisting of eight mounted men. About noon he came up to a small farm-house, from the outward appearance of which he judged that there might be something fit to eat inside. He halted his company, dismounted, and with two second lieutenants entered the dwelling. He knew that Grant's incipient fame had already gone out through all that country, and it occurred to him that by representing himself to be the general he might obtain the best the house afforded. So, assuming a very imperative demeanor, he accosted the inmates of the house, and told them he must have something for himself and staff to eat. They desired to know who he was, and he told them that he was Brigadier-General Grant. At the sound of that name they flew around with alarming alacrity, and served about all they had in the house, taking great pains all the while to make loud professions of loyalty. The lieutenants ate as much as they could of the not over-sumptuous meal, but which was, nevertheless, good for that country, and demanded what was to pay.
Nothing. And they went on their way rejoicing.

In the mean time General Grant, who had halted his army a few miles back for a brief resting-spell, came in sight of, and was rather favorably impressed with, the appearance of this same house. Riding up to the fence in front of the door, he desired to know if they would cook him a meal.

“No,” said a female in a gruff voice; “General Grant and his staff have just been here and eaten everything in the house except one pumpkin pie.”

“Humph,” murmured Grant; “what is your name?”

“Selvidge,” replied the woman.

Casting a half-dollar in at the door, he asked if she would keep that pie till he sent an officer for it, to which she replied that she would.

That evening, after the camping-ground had selected, the various regiments were notified that there would be a grand parade at half past six, for orders. Officers would see that their men all turned out, etc.

In five minutes the camp was in a perfect up roar, and filled with all sorts of rumors; some thought the enemy were upon them, it being so unusual to have parades when on a march.

At half-past six the parade was formed, ten columns deep, and nearly a quarter of a mile in length.

After the usual routine of ceremonies the Acting Assistant Adjutant-General read the following order:

HEAD-QUARTERS, ARMY IN THE FIELD.


SPECIAL ORDER No. –.

Lieutenant Wickfield, of the _________ Indiana cavalry, having on this day eaten everything in Mrs. Selvidge's house, at the crossing of the Ironton and Pocahontas and Black River and Cape Girardeau roads, except one pumpkin pie, Lieutenant Wickfield is hereby ordered to return with an escort of one hundred cavalry and eat that pie up also.

U. S GRANT

Brigadier-General Commanding

-

[ole]

Now THAT's funny!

ole

[M E Wolf]

Dear SamGrant and List Members;

It is my humble opinion that General Grant was the right man, at the proper time and place in Civil War history. I believe President Lincoln had his lessons with Generals to which he had to work with--to whom he had wished General Lee had been gracious to have commanded. I believe that the Federal Army was still in a state of shock when friends of a single military family--the US Military pre-Civil War had the best officers and training in our world (North America).

The beginnings of this 'Great Civil War' was originally to be just a big fight at Bull Run/Battle of Manassas [First]. Picnics and grand bands, the giddy spectators and such--even perhaps the Generals, officers and men; thought it would be a one weekend at the most affair. But--it wasn't. The Federal side saw that this wasn't going to be a silly or a game. The brutality horrified these spectators--blood shed.

Having the quality of leadership divided it really was the battle of the Generals, in my opinion. This is when it became war--not a sport/contest.

This was also a war of younger generals. With a few exceptions; the great many generals on both sides were rather young. I think some thought being a general was easy as well. How many times has war tested the man as well as the general? With Generals who could not see through President Lincoln's eyes with a broader picture--instead of one battle at a time mentality; President Lincoln, who suffered from depression as it was, deeply sensitive as well as fighting Congress, citizens and such--in a way fought a battle of a different level of the Civil War--and, as Commander in Chief; he was duty bound to learn how to be a General also. Learning on his feet per se.

All these generals had to learn on their feet, how to fight a new/unique type of war. It had been clearly a defined enemy in wars past in this young nation's experience. Now--Civil War--fighting against one another, fellow Americans over different 'dreams' per se. These generals had to fight internally their own souls, as they may have to encounter a dear friend, a relative who took the other side. It takes this time to season and to get over the initial shock of it all. Then, there will be a determination. The example of this arc is General Armistead and General Hancock at Gettysburg. His family bible was delivered to Mira Hancock, the wife of 'a brother to him'--General Hancock. He had reportedly declared before an assembly of friends who would scatter to take different sides the day after--'...may God strike me down if I ever lift a hand against you.' [Refering to Gen. Hancock]. Both wounded during the charge of General Pickett's--one would recover. The other mortally wounded and perish two days later.

I think upon my own personal losses of people I love in my life--even though I am single, friends, family and pets--all have affected me deeply.
I feel that the 'weeping' as some word things--can be from a tear to a all-and-all balling flood of tears and screams. Everybody is touched in one point or another. People handle grief differently and different for other people involved. To weep shows humanity in a General. It isn't 'fun' for 'fun sake.'

I believe that President Lincoln could finally take his hands off the war, having General Grant see the larger plan, having an assembled group of Generals as to be a like minded Council of War/Chief of Staff with a multiple tactical style, verses one by one battle tactic style.

In addition, it is my belief that 60% of the Civil War was fought in Virginia. To harass as well as have many major battles waged at the same time with competent Generals following to the letter Grant's plan-- Took a mental mind of a multi-tasker and the willingness to take advice of his experts.

General Grant 'is' my favorite Commander of the Federal Army. I think how war was fought afterwards, along with those in the Confederate Army; have changed how War is fought--even to this day. General George S. Patton [Ref. WWII] was known well for studying tactics of both sides of the Civil War. As a boy, he listened to Major J. S. Mosby and he taught young George what he knew. General Patton also had relatives who were also brilliant in military conduct, tactics, etc. Revolutionary War General Hugh Mercer; Great uncle Walter Tazwell Patton (7th Va. Infantry)who perished at Gettysburg during Pickett's Charge; General Hugh Weedon Mercer was also related; Colonel George Smith Patton who served with the 22nd Virginia Infantry-Company H. perished at the Battle of Opequon/Third Battle of Winchester. George S. Patton's and Walter T. Patton's younger brother William McFarland Patton, Cadet-Sergeant, Co. B fought at the Battle of New Market (VMI) [Note: George S. Patton and Walter T. Patton were buried in the same grave- Mt. Hebron Cemetery].
General Patton of W.W. II studied the past and tactics. It can't be helped to learn as battles unfold and go to their completion.

I cannot express enough my admiration of the Civil War Generals, to whom did not have the best of maps, communication and the like--to wage campaigns for four years and the brilliant minds that saw things through; regardless on attack or counter-attack and or retreat.

Of all the Generals though--I would have to pick General JNO Buford [Federal]. He bought more time for other Generals and their troops on more than one occassion. One of the unsung heros of the War; until the film Gettysburg[1993].

I would also like to add; During the Civil War -- HRH Queen Victoria of England was on the throne. If memory serves me--she began her reign when President Buchannan was in power and well after the Civil War. With the Victorian reign--the sun never didn't set on any land held by the British.

Sincerely,
M. E. Wolf

[J_Man0507]

I to had read about Grant's weeping during the battle of the Wilderness. I had read about it in Rhea's work, and in Porter's memoirs, but I wanted to see if Grant himself mentioned anything of it himself. Now, thinking that he probably wouldn't have, I went and looked it up in his memoirs, and found that he did mention the death of General Hays, but he did mention any of his emotions, other than the respect that he held for the man. But I would have to think that he was not crying over the loss of soldiers, for he had lost many men before. If it was not for the loss of a friend, I would surmise the only other reason to be frustration of the seeming ineptitude of some of the AoP commanders. It would drive a man to drink, pardon the pun. Though, I don't think Grant was a heavy drinker at this point. He had learned his lesson. And he had a chief of staff with a head on his shoulders to keep him from doing such again.